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confuzed
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Post Subject: Question about the lakers
 Posted: Jul 25, 2012 - 03:30 PM PST
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Topbuzz Newbie
Joined: Jul 25, 2012
Posts: 3
 
votes: 0
Status: Offline
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I've been a lurker on this forum for many years and I just can't seem to understand how the lakers won back to back championships with a crappy bench. Was our starting 5+lamar that great? Was sasha a good bench player? I'll never understand why people keep touting that benches are important when the lakers disproved that with 2 championships.
Also, why are the lakers making moves now? Why not 2 years ago? We would've had a much easier ride to the finals if Mitch made moves like he is now 2 years ago. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate mitch making moves now as that is a thousand times better than never, but really? Why wait 2 years? Did kobe accidentally piss him off and management decided to screw him over for 2 years?
Just to clarify, I'm not one of those hard core analytic, stat mongering, basketball maestro fans. I hardly even know what offsides is. I just enjoy the game for what it is. So, please be respectful. |
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purplengoldblood
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Post Subject: RE: Question about the lakers
Posted: Jul 25, 2012 - 03:40 PM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan
Joined: Apr 30, 2011 Age: 22
Posts: 645
Location: Orange County
votes: 2
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| You gotta understand that we lamar carried a big load off the bench. You have to realize how hungry kobe was at the time and how bad the team wanted to win it. They did make moves two years ago. Don't you remember when the lakers acquired trevor ariza and shannon brown for brian cook and vladamir radmonovic |
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Love them or hate them but hate that they're loved for the same reasons
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thatguyoverthere
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Post Subject: RE: Question about the lakers
Posted: Jul 25, 2012 - 04:19 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jun 15, 2011
Posts: 1825
votes: 13
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The Lakers didn't make moves two years ago because they thought the team coming off the 2-peat was able to go for a 3-peat. They turned out to be wrong. That offseason, they tried to get Chris Paul, but thanks to Stern, Chris Paul went to the Clippers. The Lakers stayed put for the most part until this offseason to see if they could get a big name player by trading away Gasol or Bynum.
Why were the Lakers able to win? Well,
1. The Kobe back then is not the same Kobe now. The Kobe back then could score 26.8 points/game on a 46.7% Field Goal Percentage and a 35.1% 3-Point Percentage. The Kobe now scores 27.9 points/game on a 43% Field Goal Percentage and a 30.3% 3-Point Percentage.
2. Gasol came up big. Remember how he was rated the #1 Power Forward in the league a few years back? The current Gasol has been a fish out of water with the emergence of Bynum.
3. Odom was an excellent contributor, and Ariza was solid. MWP had a big game in Game 7 of the 2010 NBA Finals.
4. Fisher, Brown, Vujacic, and Farmar had the ability to contribute 10+ points once in a while and were, with the exception of Fisher, young and energetic. Some of the players on the current Lakers' bench like Troy Murphy would be lucky to score 10 points and the bench mostly consists of old fogies. The importance of a bench is not necessarily to provide consistent scoring, but to carry the offense when the starters have an off-night. Players like Mike Miller and Shane Battier were for the most part ineffectual during the 2011-2012 regular season and for some of the 2012 playoffs, but they came up big and were huge contributors in a few wins.
5. The 2009 Magic lived and died by the three. They died by the three against the Lakers.
6. The Celtics' "Big Three" were older in 2010 and had much less stamina than the Lakers' players did. Remember Garnett failing to complete a wide-open dunk?
7. Many of the Lakers' players played lackadaisically in the Lakers' defeats. Coaching didn't seem to be very good during those defeats, either. |
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confuzed
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Post Subject: RE: Question about the lakers
Posted: Jul 25, 2012 - 04:22 PM PST
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Topbuzz Newbie
Joined: Jul 25, 2012
Posts: 3
votes: 0
Status: Offline
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Yes, I also remember the pau trade and the metta world peace trade, but this is well after that. I'm talking about the summers before the mavs and the heat won. What was the management doing? We got steve blake, which was hardly an improvement.
I like how my thread has -3 votes already. I'm just seeking answers to questions that has kept me awake for quite some time. This is not meant to be disrespectful to the lakers. If it was, why would I even be here? Why waste my time on a "lakers" website. Might as well go to a heat top buzz or something. |
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confuzed
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Post Subject: RE: Question about the lakers
Posted: Jul 25, 2012 - 04:26 PM PST
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Topbuzz Newbie
Joined: Jul 25, 2012
Posts: 3
votes: 0
Status: Offline
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| Thanks. I appreciate thatguy and purple for answering my questions! |
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thatguyoverthere
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Posted: Jul 25, 2012 - 04:30 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jun 15, 2011
Posts: 1825
votes: 13
Status: Offline
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confuzed wrote:
I like how my thread has -3 votes already. I'm just seeking answers to questions that has kept me awake for quite some time. This is not meant to be disrespectful to the lakers. If it was, why would I even be here? Why waste my time on a "lakers" website. Might as well go to a heat top buzz or something.
Don't worry about negative thumbs down. It's more for show than anything on this site as long as it doesn't go above 10 negative thumbs down. On the Internet, people are more inclined to give negative reputation, votes, thumbs down, etc. than positive ones for no reason. |
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BaadMaster
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Post Subject: RE: Question about the lakers
Posted: Jul 25, 2012 - 04:31 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
Joined: May 05, 2007
Posts: 5686
votes: 76
Status: Offline
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Also, don't forget how amazing Pau was. Clutch baskets, timely blocked shots, a walking 20 and 10 just about every game. DFish was younger and we had the Sixth Man of the Year (although he would not officially get that title until after the two peat) anchoring the bench. Plus, Phil was at his Zen best during the three years we went to the Finals.
During that three year run we were an amazing team. Plus, and this is just opinion, we have not had a bench guard as good as Farmar. Or even Sasha defensively. (And free throw shooting!)
You cannot win forever. Something always intervenes. Be it age, boredom, injuries, chemistry issues. arguments over women (Shannon Brown?), bad trades, runing into an unstoppabloe force (Dirk, who will never play like that again.)
Magic Johnson never three-peated, MJ never four-peated and neither did Shaq.
It is unrealistic to expect your team to be in the Finals every year.
Oddly enough, we had that all-too-rare opportunity -- to be in the Finals year after year after year -- but Shaq and Kobe were too crazy and egotistical to work together long term. |
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BaadMaster
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Posted: Jul 25, 2012 - 04:42 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
Joined: May 05, 2007
Posts: 5686
votes: 76
Status: Offline
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thatguyoverthere wrote:
confuzed wrote:
I like how my thread has -3 votes already. I'm just seeking answers to questions that has kept me awake for quite some time. This is not meant to be disrespectful to the lakers. If it was, why would I even be here? Why waste my time on a "lakers" website. Might as well go to a heat top buzz or something.
Don't worry about negative thumbs down. It's more for show than anything on this site as long as it doesn't go above 10 negative thumbs down. On the Internet, people are more inclined to give negative reputation, votes, thumbs down, etc. than positive ones for no reason.
Dave....I think it is time to get rid of the ratings system. It discourages taking a risk when starting a trail. And many time -- like the "Lakers Age" topic -- a great topic gets blasted. (No, that was not mine.)
JUst like Brian Cook, it is time to get rid of it. |
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Teagle_20
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Posted: Jul 26, 2012 - 05:09 PM PST
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Serious Laker Fan
Joined: Jul 01, 2009
Posts: 203
votes: 0
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confuzed wrote:
Yes, I also remember the pau trade and the metta world peace trade,................
Metta was signed as a free agent. |
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mhf94
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Posted: Jul 26, 2012 - 05:12 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Dec 28, 2011
Posts: 1957
Location: Portugal
votes: 14
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Teagle_20 wrote:
confuzed wrote:
Yes, I also remember the pau trade and the metta world peace trade,................
Metta was signed as a free agent.
No, actually it was a s&t of ariza for him. We signed Ariza, traded him to the rockets. Rockets signed Artest, trade him to us |
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Dmytri
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Posted: Jul 26, 2012 - 05:30 PM PST
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Topbuzz Newbie
Joined: Jul 25, 2012
Posts: 25
votes: 0
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| The bench this past season could have been better with a little bit more cohesion in the rotation-plus a few of the young guns got zero playing time. Difficult to judge them on that. Maybe Mike Brown saw or didn't see certain aspects in these players during the limited practices they had, but slot of the bench woes could be his fault. |
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Teagle_20
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Posted: Jul 26, 2012 - 07:44 PM PST
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Serious Laker Fan
Joined: Jul 01, 2009
Posts: 203
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mhf94 wrote:
Teagle_20 wrote:
confuzed wrote:
Yes, I also remember the pau trade and the metta world peace trade,................
Metta was signed as a free agent.
No, actually it was a s&t of ariza for him. We signed Ariza, traded him to the rockets. Rockets signed Artest, trade him to us
It is my understanding that Artest signed for the MLE.
If they did a sign and trade that would have saved both teams their MLE.
Do you have a source/link stating that it was actually a sign and trade? |
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"Dwight Howard on the post dawg"-French Montana, Stay Schemin'
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Posted: Jul 26, 2012 - 07:53 PM PST
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Laker GM
Joined: Feb 20, 2012
Posts: 4521
votes: 19
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| Seriously we had young horses back then,they were hungry for there first championship.The players who were hungry for a ring were Pau Gasol,Andrew Bynum,Lamar Odom,Trevor Ariza,Shannon Brown,Jordan Farmar.It was there first taste of a title as a group.Kobe was younger and much more healthy and he was playing great ball.The coach was the G.O.A.T. we had it all back then the bench was decent IMO.Lamar Odom,Shannon Brown,Jordan Farmar,Sasha. |
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mhf94
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Posted: Jul 26, 2012 - 07:59 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Dec 28, 2011
Posts: 1957
Location: Portugal
votes: 14
Status: Offline
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Teagle_20 wrote:
It is my understanding that Artest signed for the MLE.
If they did a sign and trade that would have saved both teams their MLE.
Do you have a source/link stating that it was actually a sign and trade?
I'm not sure but I think it was basically a s&t. I don't know for sure, but that's my idea of what happened |
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Teagle_20
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Posted: Jul 26, 2012 - 08:05 PM PST
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Serious Laker Fan
Joined: Jul 01, 2009
Posts: 203
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mhf94 wrote:
Teagle_20 wrote:
It is my understanding that Artest signed for the MLE.
If they did a sign and trade that would have saved both teams their MLE.
Do you have a source/link stating that it was actually a sign and trade?
I'm not sure but I think it was basically a s&t. I don't know for sure, but that's my idea of what happened
Ok very well,
I thought the Lakers had every intention of keeping Ariza for themselves but he got greedy and wanted more than the MLE. Thats when they jumped at Artest.
In the end Ariza got paid the same amount of money that the Lakers had offered him. |
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"Dwight Howard on the post dawg"-French Montana, Stay Schemin'
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MAP1
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Posted: Jul 26, 2012 - 09:09 PM PST
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Casual Laker Fan
Joined: Dec 18, 2010
Posts: 177
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At one point the Lakers where not trying to change something that was not broke. That equals one year, and then when they did try to change things David Stern vetoed it! That was two years!
So in my opinion the Lakers where at a stand still.
In my opinion, the biggest failure for last year was the lack of outside shooting, and the COACH! Yes, Mr. Brown did not use all the players to the best of their abilities, and in doing so their was no cohesion, and team effort in some games. We would see a great cohesive effort sometimes, and then it was a complete disaster other times! Mike Brown could not find a even keel. This year he has no excuses and if things do not work , he will be the first to go!
Metta, Pau, and Bynum are still strong players, and if Mr. Brown uses this group correctly we will have a great chance. The reason I mention only these players is because they have been the scape goat , and amongst trade rumors for the Lakers! If they where used to their strengths people would not be asking questions the last year! |
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gemfow
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Post Subject: Re: Question about the lakers
Posted: Jul 27, 2012 - 10:58 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 8237
Location: Maryland
votes: 140
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confuzed wrote:
I've been a lurker on this forum for many years and I just can't seem to understand how the lakers won back to back championships with a crappy bench. Was our starting 5+lamar that great? Was sasha a good bench player? I'll never understand why people keep touting that benches are important when the lakers disproved that with 2 championships.
Also, why are the lakers making moves now? Why not 2 years ago? We would've had a much easier ride to the finals if Mitch made moves like he is now 2 years ago. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate mitch making moves now as that is a thousand times better than never, but really? Why wait 2 years? Did kobe accidentally piss him off and management decided to screw him over for 2 years?
Just to clarify, I'm not one of those hard core analytic, stat mongering, basketball maestro fans. I hardly even know what offsides is. I just enjoy the game for what it is. So, please be respectful.
Good news! no need to learn offsides because that's in football and hockey.
This is Mitch's MO. He will ride LA bench players as if they were Hondas thinking he can get 150,000 miles out of them. Our bench wasn't too bad back then and it was mostly because of Lamar. Kobe was younger and he was able to cover up other perimeter players unlike now where he seems more of a mortal now.
I'm not a big fan of Mitch Kupchak, I know it's not an easy job but I was spoiled by Jerry West who seemed to be a better evaluator of talent and was able to move guys. Mitch seesm to be fine with signing old guys like Mitch Richmond, Antwwan Jamison and so many guys over the years but his problem seems to be with holding on to role players for too long, like Rick Fox, Samaki Walker, not making a move to get a starting power forward in LA while Robert Horry was getting worn down while being a starter but looked so much better in SA off the bench.
I'm glad Mitch has made some moves but he's doing what he has always done, sign older guys looking for a ring chance and they're at the points in their careers where they don't have much left in the tank. |
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NBAtruthwriter
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Posted: Jul 27, 2012 - 12:05 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Feb 23, 2010
Posts: 1930
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| The rest of the league wasn't as good as it is now. Our players were also a little bit hungrier. |
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seasonticketholda
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Posted: Jul 28, 2012 - 01:29 PM PST
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Serious Laker Fan
Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Posts: 428
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Question guys, acquiring a player like Steve Nash does wonders for our team in the next few year, understandably. However, a player like Steve has one of the highest IQ's in the league, which makes me wonder why we don't look for a young, athletic guard, who is very raw, but could learn from Nash? I think that a player like Tyreke Evans, who has problems reading the game, but whose talents are undeniable, would have HUGE learning curve. This is just an example to convey why I think getting Nash might be more beneficial than the common eye might see. Is this not a huge opportunity for younger players to learn?
The $ is definitely an issue, but this opportunity might pay off huge dividends with young players who are deemed as being just "athletic" or one dimensional. Just came to mind, but wanted to know what you guys thought. (Something other than a Dwight, or 3 point shooter thread) |
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mhf94
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Posted: Jul 28, 2012 - 01:45 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Dec 28, 2011
Posts: 1957
Location: Portugal
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seasonticketholda wrote:
Question guys, acquiring a player like Steve Nash does wonders for our team in the next few year, understandably. However, a player like Steve has one of the highest IQ's in the league, which makes me wonder why we don't look for a young, athletic guard, who is very raw, but could learn from Nash? I think that a player like Tyreke Evans, who has problems reading the game, but whose talents are undeniable, would have HUGE learning curve. This is just an example to convey why I think getting Nash might be more beneficial than the common eye might see. Is this not a huge opportunity for younger players to learn?
The $ is definitely an issue, but this opportunity might pay off huge dividends with young players who are deemed as being just "athletic" or one dimensional. Just came to mind, but wanted to know what you guys thought. (Something other than a Dwight, or 3 point shooter thread)
Good question! The thing is, we are certainly not getting a player with as much potential or talent as Tyreke, unless we break out the main core of our group, and there won't be any time to develop young raw players on the fly because this team can't afford any errors from young guys and this squad wants to win right now, so while Nash would do wonders for players even like Eyenga, there won't be any opportunity for him to play. But I certainly agree with your post and I think we're going to see a lot of development from players like Ebanks, who'll likely get playing time behind Artest and Kobe, and Meeks or whoever else they decide to bring. There have been so many guys that weren't 3-point threats before playing with Nash and then turned out to be sharpshooters, Dudley the most recent one, that I wouldn't be surprised at all if you see Ebanks making some threes this year.
PS: One guy I think will benefit from Nash's help is Morris. Even if doesn't get playing time, from pratice alone I think he'll develop a lot by having Nash as his mentor |
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E-Dong
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Posted: Jul 28, 2012 - 03:31 PM PST
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Joined: Jul 26, 2012 Age: 37
Posts: 814
Location: San Clemente
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Quote:
PS: One guy I think will benefit from Nash's help is Morris. Even if doesn't get playing time, from pratice alone I think he'll develop a lot by having Nash as his mentor
I've been pulling for Morris bigtime and he will surely improve under the tutelidge of the great Steve Nash. Lesson one: let the game come to you by not forcing things. |
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