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gemfowOffline
Post Subject: Our pick and roll offense really isn't too good Post ID: 637200Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 08:34 AM PST
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Has anyone noticed how impotent our pick and roll offense looks like without Kobe?

It's really frustrating to see the poor screens set by our big men. Bynum at his size should be setting screens that a guard would run into and lose control of his bowels. However I see this somewhat reaching and leaning type screen and it doesn't force the defending guard to either run around it or to have to switch. Pau is guilty of this same nonsense, McRoberts sets some good screens, but at the same time I thnk it's because he wants to set them.

On top of the screenng issue, both our point guards don't look to shoot the ball if their defender comes under the screen. What's the point of the screen then? Playing pck and roll is suppose to cause a mismatch or create room for a good shot. When I see us play pick and roll, it doesn't seem to be with a certain purpose. Am I mistaking or has anyone noticed this? Thoughts? Disagreements?

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Post Subject: RE: Our pick and roll offense really isn't too good Post ID: 637204Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 09:25 AM PST



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Post Subject: RE: Our pick and roll offense really isn't too good Post ID: 637205Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 09:35 AM PST



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Others are backdoor cuts, fastbreaks etc.

Clearly, LAL probably generates the worst PnR point turnover ratio of any team in the L sans the Bobcats probably even though it's probably the most effective play as coaches still can't stop it if run by two versatile players.

The problem for LA is that our bigs don't set screens strongly enough and our guards, sans Kobe, aren't versatile enough to drive in as they are adept with only one hand and changing hands while changing directions is gonna create TOs. Sadly, as you pointed out, they also don't seem to have enough confidence to shoot it when coming under screens. Personally, I think Sessions's shoulder is still worrying him enough to unconciously decide not to put more strain on it.

Another problem is with Kobe's hands being the way they are, his ball-handling isn't elite but at all-star level and his 3pt shooting, which has improved as the season progressed, is very streaky........if that makes sense lol.


On a related note about LAL's O,

Since Kobe's post up sources are dried out, Sessions needs to drive in harder and kick it to Kobe for the spot-up shot. It's ridiculous how his most effective ( I still think he's better at posting up as the usage rate will make Spot up shooting PPS avg. come down ) shot has a usage rate of only 6% lol.
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Post Subject: RE: Our pick and roll offense really isn't too good Post ID: 637206Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 10:09 AM PST
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I agree they struggle so much with guarding the pick and roll. Tony Parker killed them in LA and any other point guard with a good jump shot will like CP3 or Westbrook or even Jason Terry. They switch a lot instead of trying to go through the pick or get around it so that they can defend the jump shot better. I'm not sure why unless they are just following the orders from the coach but hopefully they make some adjustments with that.
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Post Subject: RE: Our pick and roll offense really isn't too good Post ID: 637209Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 10:53 AM PST
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The Lakers play to their strengths.The Jazz played pick and roll with John Stockton and Karl Malone and got 0 championships.The Lakers have 16 championships and 5 championships since 2000.Lakers play to their strengths and improve on any flaws IMO.I am young but i understand where your coming from on this topic.It makes sense to use the most common play in the offensive play book.Smile
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gastank
Post Subject: RE: Our pick and roll offense really isn't too good Post ID: 637212Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 11:14 AM PST
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It's not that our pick and roll looks bad, we just don't run true pick and roll. The majority of screens set by the Lakers are simply that - screens and nothing more. They're more for creating space than for creating switches.

You really can't expect much given that we've only had Sessions for a month while our bigs have been playing the triangle for years (and never anything else for Bynum). You'll see Metta & McRoberts do proper rolling because they've done so with other teams. The idea is that next year, with proper training camp and schedule spacing, things will get better.
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LALayup
Post Subject: RE: Our pick and roll offense really isn't too good Post ID: 637233Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 01:22 PM PST
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It's hard not to notice it. We have some players who look like they're saying "you want me to do what? and you want me to go where?" At least our effective team options multiple about tenfold when Kobe comes back. By the way, this is one of the areas where we miss Lamar Odom...or at least what he brought to the court in the past.

But for now I'd just be happy if we start looking better on PnR defense. That appears tragic right now and could spell the end of the Lakers this season if we're not careful. Amped up playoffs effort should help but only if they're all working in unison.

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Post Subject: RE: Our pick and roll offense really isn't too good Post ID: 637261Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 02:57 PM PST
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What's worse? Our Pick n Roll Offense or Pick n Roll defense?

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LALayup
Post ID: 637265Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 03:00 PM PST
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lakeshowsd wrote:
What's worse? Our Pick n Roll Offense or Pick n Roll defense?


LOL. Good question. I vote defense and mainly because it's immediately important. On offense we still have other options.

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Post ID: 637268Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 03:03 PM PST
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LakerRRTX wrote:

LOL. Good question. I vote defense and mainly because it's immediately important. On offense we still have other options.


Agreed. Defense is where the Lakers have struggled the most lately, which is ironic because most Kobe fans thought this Laker team would mainly have scoring issues without Kobe's 28 ppg average. After all, Kobe is known for his scoring, so how could the Lakers not miss it, right? Funny that Kobe's scoring was not really missed in a big way, and the 2 games the Lakers have lost in his absence have been primarily the result of porous team defense; and less to do with offensive struggles.
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Post ID: 637291Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 03:56 PM PST
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Defense. Our offense is ok without pick n roll.

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Post ID: 637337Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 08:15 PM PST
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Its more like pick and pop we have no roll.

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Post ID: 637360Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 09:23 PM PST
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KS: yes, I've noticed very useless screens by our big men and it just doesn't seem to lead to much of anything. I do notice that Gasol does get the open jumpshots.

Katie: one of the most unguardable plays is the pick and roll/pop. It requires team defense, it can cause mismatches and it's how Boston and Dallas won their rings. As talented as our two bigs are, our pick and roll offense should be a lot better. However our guards have to be willing to shoot behind them and our bigs need to set better screens.

Gas tank: the screens are creating space for who though? If there is space then someone needs to shoot. Also Gasol has played in Memphis just as long or longer and he just doesn't set a good screen. The bigs did have to sett off the ball screens in the triangle, but it still requires a good screen even though it's different than setting a screen for a ball handler.

RRTX: you're right we do have more options on offense than pck and roll, but we need it because we don't want to just go into the post or have Kobe isolation mode. Our pick and roll defense has become lazy, not sure if the lack of good depth is tiring out the starters or what. I do miss how Derek would actually run right behind the ball handler until he recovers after our big would do a hard show. Sessions pick and roll defense is subpar IMO. Sessions seems confused on pick and roll defense sometimes.

Lakeshowsd: Barnes said it best, he said the Lakers are lazy and it shows out there. If our leader can't get these guys to play hard on defense, oh wait never mind, he doesn't play hard on defense either, he'd rather roam.

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gastank
Post ID: 637368Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 09:59 PM PST
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gemfow wrote:
Gas tank: the screens are creating space for who though? If there is space then someone needs to shoot. Also Gasol has played in Memphis just as long or longer and he just doesn't set a good screen. The bigs did have to sett off the ball screens in the triangle, but it still requires a good screen even though it's different than setting a screen for a ball handler.


Creating space isn't necessarily only for getting a shot off. Obviously when Kobe gets screens he gains that slight half step separation he needs to shoot, but Sessions runs the high 1-5 pick with Bynum pretty well. It's not the traditional high screen & roll since Bynum doesn't roll, but it gives Sessions a step ahead of the defender to get into the paint.

Gasol does pick & pop instead of rolling, especially with an elbow pick that leaves him wide open for 15+ footers.

As you mentioned, the triangle utilizes off-ball screens a lot, and we're excellent at that. For ex. the baseline out of bounds play that got Kobe & Sessions wide open for straight away 3s uses at least 2 screens, including one where one screener picks off two defenders. Our guys are pretty good at setting screens, they just aren't used to the rolling part yet.
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KS_v2Offline
Post ID: 637411Posted: Apr 20, 2012 - 02:46 AM PST



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gastank wrote:
gemfow wrote:
Gas tank: the screens are creating space for who though? If there is space then someone needs to shoot. Also Gasol has played in Memphis just as long or longer and he just doesn't set a good screen. The bigs did have to sett off the ball screens in the triangle, but it still requires a good screen even though it's different than setting a screen for a ball handler.


Creating space isn't necessarily only for getting a shot off. Obviously when Kobe gets screens he gains that slight half step separation he needs to shoot, but Sessions runs the high 1-5 pick with Bynum pretty well. It's not the traditional high screen & roll since Bynum doesn't roll, but it gives Sessions a step ahead of the defender to get into the paint.

Gasol does pick & pop instead of rolling, especially with an elbow pick that leaves him wide open for 15+ footers.

As you mentioned, the triangle utilizes off-ball screens a lot, and we're excellent at that. For ex. the baseline out of bounds play that got Kobe & Sessions wide open for straight away 3s uses at least 2 screens, including one where one screener picks off two defenders. Our guys are pretty good at setting screens, they just aren't used to the rolling part yet.



Repped. Couldn't have put it better myself, even if I'm at it for ages lol.


But as said, LAL would be wise to keep away from it atleast for now. PnR requires a lot of understanding and I don't think we can fully integrate it this season. I'd rather go for double screen cuts or post-pops for a corner 3 rather than LAL's PnR.


PnR D though, is an entirely different issue. LAL's bigs have a hard time countering against it when the opposing point guard can pull up midrange instead of going entirely towards the basket.

Westbrook torched us in Q3 in our last meeting because of it. Another problem which our bigs needs to address is his weight distribution while defending the PnR. Too many times he's planted and dares the guy to pull-up. And when he does, they inherently don't have the athleticism to cover it up.


Another thing our bigs need to address is the way they hedge on D as well. They need to delay the PG from penetrating and not act like a cone in a wide open court lol.

Communication with the perimeter guys is also important. Sessions hasn't so far been as good defensively as I expected. Too many times he's easily being beaten to the rim. He also needs to communicate with the others to let them know which side to commit to for help D and rotating.
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LALayup
Post ID: 637416Posted: Apr 20, 2012 - 04:16 AM PST
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gemfow wrote:
RRTX: you're right we do have more options on offense than pck and roll, but we need it because we don't want to just go into the post or have Kobe isolation mode. Our pick and roll defense has become lazy, not sure if the lack of good depth is tiring out the starters or what. I do miss how Derek would actually run right behind the ball handler until he recovers after our big would do a hard show. Sessions pick and roll defense is subpar IMO. Sessions seems confused on pick and roll defense sometimes.


Agree Gem. What I meant above is that I believe all our options, including pick and roll and better action off of screens will improve after Kobe comes back. At the very least Kobe and Pau are comfortable with each other and what they can do in tandem. I think you know I feel the same way about ever returning to too much Kobe iso. That would be a real killer even though I don't mind it every now and then and especially if the matchup is good and/or he's really hot. The same goes for focusing far too much on post-up play too, although I truly hope we don't get away from the good play we've gotten from Metta in post-up action. The guy looks like a completely different player on the court right now.

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Post ID: 637423Posted: Apr 20, 2012 - 09:22 AM PST
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RRTX: I always knew Ron could still play. I just wasn't a big fan of Phil Jackson's ways of two guys get the ball on offense, being Kobe and Pau. Phil had this same issue with Glen Rice, Rice was an awesome post up guy who could get his shot off in the post. However Phil just wanted him to be a spt up shooter, same for Artest. Ron is more of a scorer, he is not a good spot up shooter. I think Chicago and Boston do it best when they have weak side and strong side movement on offense, it gets everyone involved and it gets easy shots for people.

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Post ID: 637439Posted: Apr 20, 2012 - 11:00 AM PST
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KS_v2 wrote:
Sessions hasn't so far been as good defensively as I expected. Too many times he's easily being beaten to the rim. He also needs to communicate with the others to let them know which side to commit to for help D and rotating.


Sessions' defense is exactly what I expected. Why? When the Lakers initially made the trade to acquire Ramon Sessions, John Hollinger of ESPN said that while Sessions is a tremendous upgrade over Fisher, Sessions' defense is still suspect, and Hollinger has been proven to be 100% correct in that regard.

Sessions' needs to step up his game and show the ability to provide competent perimeter defense, especially in terms of closing off driving lanes to the rim. It's going to be nothing short of critical that Sessions improve defensively if the Lakers hope to win a title this season. If guys like Tony Parker and Westbrook continue to completely dominate Sessions' offensively in the playoffs, the Lakers will be in serious trouble.
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Post ID: 637476Posted: Apr 20, 2012 - 01:17 PM PST
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Sessions reminds me a lot of Farmar on the defensive end. He's off and on, and he sticks to screens like sticking to a hot woman at a club that he bought a drink for. This is what I miss about Fisher and the way he played screens.

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Post ID: 638086Posted: Apr 21, 2012 - 12:16 AM PST
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watching the game against the Spurs tonight was tough to say the least. However I always watch blowout games til the end because i like to see the players that dont get much playing time. Tonight i was impressed with Jordan Hill's pick and roll game. I think he could take some pressure off our bigs and should be put in before Murphy sees the court.
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Post ID: 638199Posted: Apr 21, 2012 - 03:59 PM PST
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lakeshowsd wrote:
KS_v2 wrote:
Sessions hasn't so far been as good defensively as I expected. Too many times he's easily being beaten to the rim. He also needs to communicate with the others to let them know which side to commit to for help D and rotating.


Sessions' defense is exactly what I expected. Why? When the Lakers initially made the trade to acquire Ramon Sessions, John Hollinger of ESPN said that while Sessions is a tremendous upgrade over Fisher, Sessions' defense is still suspect, and Hollinger has been proven to be 100% correct in that regard.

Sessions' needs to step up his game and show the ability to provide competent perimeter defense, especially in terms of closing off driving lanes to the rim. It's going to be nothing short of critical that Sessions improve defensively if the Lakers hope to win a title this season. If guys like Tony Parker and Westbrook continue to completely dominate Sessions' offensively in the playoffs, the Lakers will be in serious trouble.


LSD,
At this point sessions has found where the bathroom in Staples is located, give him until next year before you jump to judgment and as for Hollinger I have never been a believer in him or his stats.
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LALayup
Post ID: 638403Posted: Apr 22, 2012 - 01:53 PM PST
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^ Nothing is set in stone, but it's not strictly a Hollinger thing. You'd be hard pressed to find a basketball analyst who doesn't have some serious doubts about Ramon's defensive ability. There's always some hope for a radical change in the near future and/or over the summer. But it would not be cool at all to find out that this is as good as it gets on the defensive end from Ramon if the Lakers lock him in on a long term deal. Some fans on here are only saying that it's more of a risk than most Lakers fans initially thought.

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Post ID: 639405Posted: Apr 22, 2012 - 06:21 PM PST
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LakerRRTX wrote:
^ Nothing is set in stone, but it's not strictly a Hollinger thing. You'd be hard pressed to find a basketball analyst who doesn't have some serious doubts about Ramon's defensive ability. There's always some hope for a radical change in the near future and/or over the summer. But it would not be cool at all to find out that this is as good as it gets on the defensive end from Ramon if the Lakers lock him in on a long term deal. Some fans on here are only saying that it's more of a risk than most Lakers fans initially thought.


Disagree, it is the LTB usual response to pick out a player and like a pit bull climb all over him. In this case, the guy has only been here two months and you and everyone else need to give him until next season before you start looking for a change. I had to suffer for 4 years with Fish's $hit play and I want sessions to have a fair shot at the starting position. Thus far as a PG he is light years ahead of Fish. Fish is not looking that good playing as a bench player for the Thunder so as a team we are way better off without him. That is my opinion.
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Post ID: 639754Posted: Apr 23, 2012 - 03:37 AM PST
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^^^ good point Maraud. I like Sessions, he seems like an old school pg. I wasn't expecting an allstar but I would like to see better defense and a left hand next season. He has good vision, Fish did not and Fish was done and we knew it.

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Post ID: 639842Posted: Apr 23, 2012 - 12:43 PM PST
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gemfow wrote:
^^^ good point Maraud. I like Sessions, he seems like an old school pg. I wasn't expecting an allstar but I would like to see better defense and a left hand next season. He has good vision, Fish did not and Fish was done and we knew it.


Gem,
I really do think you will see better D next year from Sessions. D is harder to pickup than O and Brown is a defensive coach.Only time will tell.
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