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warrenweelim
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Post subject: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to Deal
 Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 09:51 AM PST
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Laker GM
Joined: May 11, 2007
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With all the good vibe and cameraderie the Lakers are enjoying; with the promise of Andrew Bynum and the emergence of Farmar as a top-flight PG; with the energy of Crittenton and the defense of recently acquired Trevor Ariza; with the much-improved season of Vlade Radman and Sasha coming to his own; the settling of Ronny Turiaf into the core; the basketball minds and skills of Lamar and Luke; and the tough interior defense of Kwame being an essential piece to any big salaried trade;
Are all these reason enough to refuse the possibility of Jason Kidd? The Best PG of the NBA today (at age 34), yes over Nash... a triple-double machine on a very weak New Jersey team (coach and role players), more so on a potent Lakers team with Drew and Ronny emerging as boys to men.
Lets see the facts and not settle with the stereotype.
1. Jason Kidd is the best PG in the NBA for the last decade or so since John Stockton decided to hang up his sneakers. Yes I say this with all his achievements and the ones he is still doing, its phenomenal to think otherwise that Nash, though he has won 2 of the last 3 MVP awards.
verdict: DO IT!
2. How will JKidd fit into the TRI? He holds the ball too much, he dominates the break and he is slower. How will we accomodate 4 VERY VERY GOOD PG's on one team? 3 alone is hard enough to share time.
verdict: DON'T DO IT!
3. Remember how Fisher has changed the whole dynamic of this team? From a mediocre unreliable PG roster, Fish dramatically transforms this team into a very solid and composed team. What are his stats again? Oh wait, his LEADERSHIP spreads to the locker room and sets the atmosphere.
verdict: DO IT!
4. JKidd earns 19.4M this year, some 21M next year and he is asking for that retirement package of 24M on his final year. If we trade for him, we will exhaust our players into fulfilling the salary requirements to make the trade work.
verdict: DON'T DO IT!
5. If Kidd is the price to keep Kobe committed to LA, as he has shown at times when he looks so disinterested, why not? It will be the big move that we all have been waiting for - and it comes with a firesale price. The acquisition will surely keep Kobe glued in LA until his contract is up in 2011 perhaps even beyond. If it means we won't have to face a team having Kobe as the best player, by all means...
verdict: DO IT!
6. We will have 4 PGs depending on the trade mechanics. How will we share time?
verdict: DON'T DO IT!
After six legitimate arguments, we are all tied up. Sometimes it makes me wonder if trading all our important pieces will be worth it. Will we be the 1st team in NBA history to sport 4 really good PGs and Kobe as the guard rotation. Since Fish and JKidd have limited time to spend, will they relinquish the reins to 2 exceptional Kids in Farmar and Critt?
Proposals:
Since Kidd earns 19M, we have to match that amount by at least 17M in salaries.
Kobe Bryant - 19.4M (4)
Lamar Odom - 13.5M (2)
Kwame Brown - 9.1M (1)
Vlade Radman - 5.6M (4)
Derek Fisher - 4.3M (3) *Dec 15th, daughter situation.
Luke Walton - 4.0M (6) *Dec 15th
Trevor Ariza - 3.1M (2) *cannot be traded in combination with another player until Jan 20th.
Chris Mihm - 2.2M (2)
Andrew Bynum - 2.1M (2)
Sasha Vujacic - 1.8M (1)
Javaris Crittenton - 1.4M (4)
Jordan Farmar - 1.1M (3)
Ronny Turiaf - 700k (1)
Coby Karl - 400k (1) *Dec15th
Ok, who do we offer?
Package #1 - Lamar Odom + Kwame Brown + 08 1st + 09 2nd
(catch: NJ will waive Kwame immediately and will rejoin LA for the 1M remaining we have with the MLE)
Package #2 - Odom + Radman + Sasha + Crittenton + 08 1st
(Collins comes along the package)
Package #3 - Kwame + Radman + Crittenton + Sasha + 2 future firsts
(3M cash will likely be awarded as well, at the same time, selling a possible future 2nd for cash from the Nets to LA or other compromises of some sort.)
ALL 3 packages seems to do 3 things:
1. Part with Lamar - our second option and extremely skilled forward.
2. Part with Kwame - our best interior defender.
3. Thin our bench to a point we become Boston of the West.
ALL possible Kidd scenarios seem to not be plausible from the financial end. Lakers will tread the luxury tax territory in almost all of the possible scenarios and that is something Mitch and Jerry are very mindful of. For this reason alone, we might decide NOT to do the deal.
However, the idea of Kidd coming to LA this time without parting with Drew Bynum MIGHT spark Kobe's idea that the Lakers are serious in keeping him. This move alone can make Kobe commit to finish off his contract and beyond.
The question now is for you to decide. Is the best PG of the NBA with the best player of the NBA enough to win a Ring once more for LA? No doubt that JKidd will make Ronny and Drew the superstars they will become and will speed up this process by 5 years. Not to mention the mentorship it will bring to Jordan Farmar - having played with Kobe, Kidd and Fish? Are you kidding me? Crittenton will almost have to go if we decide to force Kidd to LA. Is his prospect expendable for the chance to get Kidd here?
The prospect of Kidd will always intrigue me. The fact that Cleveland CANNOT offer a better package if we send Odom and Crittenton to NJ, that makes us the front runner to this race. Its all up to us to pull the trigger. |
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poppintags08
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 01:04 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 1409
votes: 14
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Good post Warren. Here's my two cents...
1. Kidd is not the best pg in the NBA. It's Nash. Kidd was the best PG up until 2004, since then it's been all Nash. No doubt about it. Kidd has been a respectable second.
2. If we get Kidd, we cannot include Odom. That won't help us one bit. Kidd and Odom must play together for us to have a shot at a title.
3. One of our strongest positions is PG and it seems redundant for us to add an all star level player at that spot. I don't think Fish came here to turn into a 10 minute backup to Kidd, and now we would also sit Farmar just like we are sitting Critt. Would be terrible. It might even hurt our chemistry.
The best possible deal that makes sense basketball wise, is:
Kwame, Farmar, Walton and a 1st - for - Jason Kidd.
Fish would be a backup PG. He can also play alongside Kidd as can Critt because Kidd is a good defender who can gaurd SG's. First I thought Kidd and Fish wouldn't make sense together but now I think they would. |
Last edited by poppintags08 on Dec 06, 2007 - 01:21 PM PST; edited 1 time in total
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JamFan
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Post subject: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to Deal
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 01:19 PM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan
Joined: Oct 04, 2005
Posts: 730
Location: San Luis Obispo
votes: 5
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| Again, you are trading for the 29 year old Jason Kidd. Instead, we would be trading for the "twilight of his career" Jason Kidd with two knees that are reportedly bone on bone. A Jason Kidd who will earn 65 Mil the next 3 years and is one knee injury away from his career being over. Kidd has the 4th best scorer in the NBA in Jefferson at 26 PPG and Vince Carter who is shooting 46% from the field and going for 19 and 5. There record is what? Oh, 9 - 10. And the last time Jason Kidd made to the finals was? When? With who? I guess it was so long ago I can't remember. So, Ok, do it. But give up only expendable parts to get him. Kwame, VladRad, a 1st round pick, is actually to much. You can give up more, but you may be doing it to have success for only one season. Jason could be in a wheel chair after that. Then Kobe will have to opt out anyway because we do not have any players or assets left to go out and get another player to replace the broken down Kidd. |
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poppintags08
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Post subject: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to Deal
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 01:24 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 1409
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JamFan wrote:
Again, you are trading for the 29 year old Jason Kidd. Instead, we would be trading for the "twilight of his career" Jason Kidd with two knees that are reportedly bone on bone. A Jason Kidd who will earn 65 Mil the next 3 years and is one knee injury away from his career being over. Kidd has the 4th best scorer in the NBA in Jefferson at 26 PPG and Vince Carter who is shooting 46% from the field and going for 19 and 5. There record is what? Oh, 9 - 10. And the last time Jason Kidd made to the finals was? When? With who? I guess it was so long ago I can't remember. So, Ok, do it. But give up only expendable parts to get him. Kwame, VladRad, a 1st round pick, is actually to much. You can give up more, but you may be doing it to have success for only one season. Jason could be in a wheel chair after that. Then Kobe will have to opt out anyway because we do not have any players or assets left to go out and get another player to replace the broken down Kidd.
Actually if Kidd does break down in the end, then his huge contract turns into a huge asset which would allow us to make another big trade for a disgruntled star in a couple years. As long as we don't give up too much for Kidd, I'm down.
Kwame, Farmar, Walton, and a 1st for Kidd. Remember, Kidd can gaurd the SG's of the league and that would allow both Fish and Critt to play alongside him in the backcourt, especially when Kobe rests. |
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Janglesjr
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to Deal
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 01:56 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jun 17, 2007
Posts: 1021
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I agree with you poppin...We cannot include Lamar or Bynum in any trade for Kidd. If we include Lamar (Lamar & Kwame for Kidd) we are destroying our starting 5, not too mention our bench becomes weak as a result. Lamar, as inconsistent as he's been, is an extremely versatile player and his game extends back to the arc. That's not to say I still wouldn't turn around and trade Lamar and VRad for JO.
Kidd
Kobe
Luke
JO
Bynum |
_________________
"Everyting negative - pressure, challenges - is all an opportunity for me to rise." -Kobe Bryant
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gemfow
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to Deal
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 01:59 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 2277
Location: Maryland
votes: 27
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Warren was right by saying Kidd is the best PG out there over Nash and always has been. Nash is better offensively, but no where as close defensively and I give Kidd the nod when it comes to passing also. Nash hasn't done anything differently when he was in Dallas, he just has more pieces and they push the ball a lot more, so his assists definitely go up with those factors.
As far as the topic is concerned, I don't think we should make the trade. PG is not our problem, that has been addressed with the addition of Fish, the maturation of Jordan Farmar and the soon to be emergence of Critt. We need a power player more than anything on the Lakers, someone who demands attention in the post and who is aggressive offensively and defensively. |
_________________
"It made me feel like I should throw mine away." - Larry Bird, upon hearing that Kobe hadn't earned the MVP trophy until this year.
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Axle
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to Deal
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 02:05 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 1698
votes: 2
Status: Offline
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| Here we go again! I just heard on ESPN that Jason Kidd wants out and they mentioned about four teams he wants to be traded to. One of them was the Lakers. I sure hope they don't trade for Kidd. We do not need a point guard. We already have three good point guards. It would be a big mistake to trade for Kidd in my opinion. |
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poppintags08
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to Deal
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 02:27 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 1409
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gemfow wrote:
Warren was right by saying Kidd is the best PG out there over Nash and always has been. Nash is better offensively, but no where as close defensively and I give Kidd the nod when it comes to passing also. Nash hasn't done anything differently when he was in Dallas, he just has more pieces and they push the ball a lot more, so his assists definitely go up with those factors.
As far as the topic is concerned, I don't think we should make the trade. PG is not our problem, that has been addressed with the addition of Fish, the maturation of Jordan Farmar and the soon to be emergence of Critt. We need a power player more than anything on the Lakers, someone who demands attention in the post and who is aggressive offensively and defensively.
Sorry Gem, Kidd is not the best PG. His offense compared to Nash's is non exsistent. Nash is a waaayyyy better offensive player who scores at a very high rate. Kidd's defiency in offense is way more of a factor then anything you can think of. You can point to rebounding or defense, but Nash is a great team defender who draws a lot of charges and that's huge for them. Nash always battles on defense but yet people try to point that he doesn't play defense just because of reputation. Only difference is that Kidd is bigger and can gaurd the 1 or 2 and Nash can only gaurd the 1. Besides, the Suns don't need him to gaurd the 2 so it doesn't matter. What I would say is that Kidd has an advantage on defense, and is a better rebounder, that's all. Not a better passer, no way a better scorer, and everything else is tied. It's Nash who is the best PG. |
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jbully314
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to Deal
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 02:47 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jul 17, 2007 Age: 34
Posts: 1290
votes: 12
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| I think we would have to give up too much for Kidd. I don't want to part with either Bynum or Farmar, and I'm not too keen on losing Critt either. The future is suddenly very bright, and I don't want to compromise that for a great but older player. I think the better option would be to go after Andre Miller with Philly. Word is that now that Billy King is out, the Sixers are going to move Miller. I think we have a better chance of landing him without giving up our future core, and he may even be a better fit than Kidd's game would be here. Thoughts? |
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poppintags08
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to Deal
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 02:53 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
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jbully314 wrote:
I think we would have to give up too much for Kidd. I don't want to part with either Bynum or Farmar, and I'm not too keen on losing Critt either. The future is suddenly very bright, and I don't want to compromise that for a great but older player. I think the better option would be to go after Andre Miller with Philly. Word is that now that Billy King is out, the Sixers are going to move Miller. I think we have a better chance of landing him without giving up our future core, and he may even be a better fit than Kidd's game would be here. Thoughts?
No to Miller. If we are going to get a PG, we should get one of the BEST pg's out. Not just a good one. Miller isn't enough of a difference maker. So what's the point? The reason that Kidd is the one is because he's a huge difference maker. Miller is good, but not nearly good enough to propel us to the elit.
If the Lakers are going to trade some of their best assets ie Kwame, Critt or picks, then it better land us top notch players ie Kidd, O'neal, Gasol. Not Miller.
Sorry Bully. |
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jbully314
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to De
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 03:04 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jul 17, 2007 Age: 34
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So you're willing to give up Kwame, Odom, Crittenton and Farmar? Because that's what it's going to take. I wouldn't do it.
Kwame and Odom need to be involved or the money won't work. Then they will want two prospects. They will demand two of our big three prospects: Bynum, Farmar, and Critt.
I say no way, way too much to pay. |
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jbully314
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to De
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 03:22 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jul 17, 2007 Age: 34
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| Fortunately, this decision is not up to us. It is up to both the Lakers and the Nets. I would love to have Kidd, but I wouldn't be willing to mortgage the future for him, because the future is too bright. This story could and probably will drag out over the next few weeks, and Warren the trade master as well as everyone else will trade our entire roster a few times over before this is done. It's going to be an interesting few weeks. What's ironic is that the most likely scenario is that he stays put. Just like Kobe, just like J.O., just like Marion, just like Kirilenko, just like Gasol, just like Camby, just like Artest, just like Maggette...I know that it is a possibility, like Garnett eventually happening was, but my point is that Kidd being dealt out of NJ is less likely than we think. |
Last edited by jbully314 on Dec 06, 2007 - 03:26 PM PST; edited 1 time in total
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Janglesjr
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not to De
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 03:25 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jun 17, 2007
Posts: 1021
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| We're going after a PG because it is Jason Freaking Kidd. We're not just searching for a PG, we've got plenty of those. There is no point in going after Miller, we don't need him. Getting JKidd gets us a difference maker, top three PG in the league as well as the superstar Kobe has repeatedly asked for. |
_________________
"Everyting negative - pressure, challenges - is all an opportunity for me to rise." -Kobe Bryant
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jbully314
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not t
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 03:31 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jul 17, 2007 Age: 34
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Janglesjr wrote:
We're going after a PG because it is Jason Freaking Kidd. We're not just searching for a PG, we've got plenty of those. There is no point in going after Miller, we don't need him. Getting JKidd gets us a difference maker, top three PG in the league as well as the superstar Kobe has repeatedly asked for.
I understand that. But if we gut our team to get him then we're not going to win the championship anyway. I'm all for getting him as long as we don't gut our team. They are going to be asking for a lot, and we can't give away our future because we will also be giving away our present. I would give up Kwame, Vlad, Critt and a first round pick. I would make sure to keep Farmar, Odom, and Bynum. Otherwise, no deal. |
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poppintags08
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not t
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 03:57 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 1409
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| Actually, I'd give up Kwame, Luke, Critt, and a Lakers 1st rounder. That should be plenty of assets for a 34 year old 19 million player who wants a 1 year 13 mill extention. Critt and Marcus Williams will be their 2 young dynamic PG's, Luke will play alongside his best bud in Richard Jefferson and be a good facilitator, and Kwame is a defensive big with a 9 mill expiring deal. Plus they get the Lakers 1st next season along with thier own and Denvers. That's 3 first rounders. |
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jbully314
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or not t
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 04:03 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jul 17, 2007 Age: 34
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poppintags08 wrote:
Actually, I'd give up Kwame, Luke, Critt, and a Lakers 1st rounder. That should be plenty of assets for a 34 year old 19 million player who wants a 1 year 13 mill extention. Critt and Marcus Williams will be their 2 young dynamic PG's, Luke will play alongside his best bud in Richard Jefferson and be a good facilitator, and Kwame is a defensive big with a 9 mill expiring deal. Plus they get the Lakers 1st next season along with thier own and Denvers. That's 3 first rounders.
See, I'd be cool with that deal too. But if you're the Nets, you are looking at the Lakers roster saying, "Why aren't we getting any of the guys we really want? OK, you can have Kidd if you throw in Bynum or Farmar instead of Luke."
I just don't think they're going to deal Kidd on our terms. It will be on their terms, and their terms will be demanding. Hey, I could be wrong, but in my opinion trading for a superstar is still pretty hard to do. |
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poppintags08
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or n
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 04:13 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 1409
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| But Kidd isn't a superstar, rather a top 5 PG who's still playing at an All-Star level. His downside is that he's old, and doesn't have more then 3 years left in him. So I highly doubt that the Nets will start acting a fool and ask for our best young assets. No one will give up their best young assets for Kidd. I'm sure deals can be made with other teams, but no one will overpay, including the Lakers. |
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mambamonk87
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or n
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 05:22 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: May 25, 2007 Age: 21
Posts: 2239
Location: Los Angeles/San Diego CA
votes: 20
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no deal. i like jason kidd and all, but he doesn't fit into the lakers scheme that we've been working on. with the money we'd have to pay jason kidd, i'd rather get someone like JO or some other tough power forward. the lakers are notorious for being weak at the PF slot, so i'd rather wait till the offseason to work on that instead.
although it hurts really bad to say no to jason kidd. x[ |
_________________
“We're rock stars. We're Lakers. We're always sexy. We've always got sexy going on in everything we do.”
- Lamar Odom
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poppintags08
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or n
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 06:18 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 1409
votes: 14
Status: Offline
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We can be a facilitator in a Kidd deal. How about Kidd to the Nuggets?
Lakers get Marcus Camby.
Nuggets get Jason Kidd and Mihm
Nets get Kwame, Crittenton, Lakers 1st, and Denver filler.
Any thoughts? |
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jbully314
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Jason Kidd: to Deal or n
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 06:24 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
Joined: Jul 17, 2007 Age: 34
Posts: 1290
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