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lakeshowsd
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Post subject: Why Wilt Chamberlain is NOT the G.O.A.T.
 Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 08:06 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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Here are my long overdue thoughts on the Wilt autobiography. I hope you have some time because this is without a doubt my LONGEST POST on the LTB (perhaps one of the longest LTB posts ever). Hopefully you'll find it worthwhile.
Naturally, I enjoyed Wilt's book immensely. Once I started reading it, I finished it much quicker than the I typically read books. I don't think any fan could have asked for a more open and honest autobiography from any pro athlete. To say that Wilt was larger than life would be a considerable understatement. There were times when I would stop reading for a moment, laugh, shake my head, and say to myself "man, that Wilt was something else."
It was interesting to discover that Wilt wrote the book after the 1972-73 season, which I believe was the last one he played. That would have made him almost 37 years old when he played his final game in the NBA. Looking at Wilt's stats for that final season, he had averaged a league leading 18 rebounds per game, and set the all-time record for field goal percentage at over 72% for the season. Wilt also averaged over 13 points per game, over 4 assists per game, and god knows how many blocks; All-Star numbers by today's standards for NBA Centers. Can you imagine 37-year-old Shaq playing 43 minutes per game and putting up those kinds of overall numbers right now? LOL. Even a center as great as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar never posted those kinds of defense stats, even in his prime. Wilt was 35 years old when he won the Finals MVP. Who else, other than maybe Michael Jordan, has done that? I don't know, but it's impressive none the less.
It was incredible that in a 14 year career, Wilt had I think, 8 different coaches. That's basically a new coach every other year, and three times over the course of his career some of those coaches asked him to radically change the style of his game for the betterment of the team. He went from being the most dominant scorer in league history, to being the best passing big man ever, to being the most dominant defensive player in the league! He basically mastered the 3 major skill sets of basketball (scoring, passing, defense) and demonstrated his mastery by being the most dominant player in the league in each of those categories for at least 1 full season. If that isn't greatness, I don't know what is.
Wilt did a lot of amazing things in his career and one need only consult the NBA record books to understand just how amazing a career he had. Other than winning more titles, there really isn't anything more he could have accomplished in his career, and it's remarkable just how close he came to winning quite a few more than the 2 rings he eventually did win. A bad call from the ref, a lucky shot, a loose ball that didn't bounce his team's way; all these things proved to be the difference between winning and losing championships, and it happened so many times to Wilt's teams in his storied career.
Despite a number of tough breaks in the playoffs, Wilt still gets credit for accomplishing something that his eventual teammates Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich, Happy Hairston, and Jerry West cannot say they did: Wilt beat the Celtics in a playoff series. Not only did the 1967' Sixers beat the Celtics, they snapped a Celtic streak of 8 consecutive championships, a fact that was surprisingly not mentioned in the book. The Celtics went on to win back-to-back titles immediately after that season, beating Wilt's teams each time, so perhaps that's why not much was made of that 67' Philadelphia team. Still, had Wilt's team not snapped that Celtic streak, the Celtics would have won an even more impressive 11 consecutive titles. Because of Wilt and his superior team that year, the Celtics had to settle for 8 straight titles (world's smallest fiddle playing for the Celtics. LOL).
Wilt just had so many interesting thoughts and observations in this book, I don't even know where to begin. With the book being originally released in 1973, many of the hard feelings and grudges were still fresh in Wilt's mind at the time. Some of Wilt's comments about Bill Russell were very interesting. While he acknowledged Russell's unyielding and passionate desire to win, Wilt was honest in his appraisal of Russell's offensive ineptitude throughout his entire career. For a player of such legendary status as Russell, his offensive statistics certainly don't support that viewpoint. Wilt was quick to bring this to light when speaking openly of Russell's strengths and weaknesses as a player.
Among other interesting comments in the book was the stuff Wilt said about Chick Hearn. For Wilt to suggest that Chick Hearn's commentary often displayed open favoritism toward Jerry West was surprising. It was downright shocking to find out that during games, Chick would speak of Wilt in precisely the opposite fashion, sometimes showing a subtle antipathy for the great Laker center. In all the years I've listened to Chick Hearn, that was one of the toughest things to imagine as being true. Though if Wilt said it, perhaps there is some element of truth there, hard as it is to believe.
In fact, one of the most fascinating things that I discovered about Wilt was that he was such a vilified character for much of his career. You know, the kind of player that everybody loves to hate. At least that's how Wilt felt about his treatment by the media, opposing teams' fans, players, and coaches around the league. As one who's been the victim of harsh and sometimes unfair criticism in my life, I can certainly sympathize with Wilt's situation.
Being really the first truly great player over 7 feet tall, the sensitivity that Wilt had about being regarded as a over-sized freak was something that really resonated in my mind. Though I've never gone up to someone who appeared to be approximately seven feet tall and asked them how tall there were, I can certainly imagine how old that must get for tall folks. I certainly wouldn't go up to an extremely obese person and ask how fat there were, and I make it a point to never ask a woman's age. Asking a tall person about their height definitely falls in that same category for me, and it's probably right that it should. There is something to be said for common courtesies.
There were some things that Wilt said about his former Laker teammates Jerry West and Elgin Baylor that caught my interest. There was the part about how Jerry West sometimes couldn't handle the pressure of being "Mr. Clutch" and after repeatedly failing in the playoffs to live up to that nickname, he would even go so far as to take a separate flight home from the rest of the team. That way he didn't have to face his disappointed fans as he got off the plane. Then there was how Jerry was extremely careful when it came to controlling and maintaining his clean cut, all American, family guy image; even to the point where he would be dishonest to the media when questioned about certain things that happened during the game.
Wilt mentioned that various times Jerry would feel strongly about something that was wrong with the team, and he would admit as much to Wilt in private, but he always refused to openly speak his mind about it. When it came down to it, I guess Jerry West just wasn't a very confrontational guy. For example, all of the Laker players, including Jerry, thought Van Breda Kolff was a sh*tty coach, but Jerry would never say anything about it, nor would the other players. That must have alienated Wilt, who was generally open and honest about most things. In reality, Van Breda Kolff should have been fired long before he had a chance to sabotage the Lakers in the 1969 NBA Finals, and if more players like Jerry or Elgin had openly voiced their opinions to the Laker front office, highlighting Van Breda Kolff's incompetence, history might have played out more favorably for the Lakers in that season.
There are certain parallels that one can draw from modern day Kobe and Jerry West in the later part of his career. Consider how controlling Kobe has been in terms of his "family guy" image since the Colorado incident. I suppose a lot of players are overly concerned about their image these days, but it's still interesting because Kobe has always idolized Jerry West, and still does to this day.
As far as Wilt's thoughts on Elgin Baylor, I was surprised to find out that Elgin was apparently not much of a defensive player. In Wilt's own words, "defense was something Elg did only to help pass the time between shots." When you consider how many times the Lakers failed to beat the Celtics, who were such a consistently great defensive team back in those days, the things Wilt said about Elgin certainly gives me a new perspective on all those tough losses in the Finals. Can you imagine if Kobe, MJ, or Duncan didn't play the superb defense that we have grown accustomed to seeing from them over the years? Would they have been nearly as successful without that vital element to each man's game? I think not. Knowing what I now know about Elgin Baylor, he certainly drops a few spots on my list of All-Time greats.
Through it all, Wilt was still careful to point out that men like Elgin and Jerry were undoubtedly great players, despite all their failures. I believe he called Jerry West one of the greatest guards of all time, which is no small praise coming from Wilt. Wilt also called Bill Russell the greatest defensive player he'd ever seen and the greatest competitor ever. It was remarkable to discover just how much winning meant to Russell and how it was quite literally the most important thing in his life. According to Wilt, winning meant everything to Russell and his desire to win was so strong that all the stress and nervous energy would cause him to throw up before every important game.
Most interesting of all was how Wilt utterly dominated Russell in virtually all of their head-to-head matchups. Nobody loved a personal challenge more than Wilt, which is the primary reason why he holds so many league records to this day. When people would say that Russell was better than him, Wilt would absolutely crush Russell in terms of individual statistics. In fact, I don't think there is another example in NBA history where great player A repeatedly dominated great player B in the head-to-head matchups, while great player A's team still failed almost every time to beat great player B's team. It was an anomaly to say the least, and it's a true testament to the greatness of those Boston Celtic teams and their vaunted dynasty. I think I vomited in my mouth a little bit when I said that. Okay, sorry, moving on...
One last point of interest was how close Wilt came to becoming a Celtic. I thought it was fascinating that Red Auerbach, of all people, was Wilt's coach at the Kutcher's Country Club, which had a sort of hotel league back when Wilt was a teenager and still in high school. Going up against top ranked collegiate players and NBA pros, even then Wilt dominated the competition. The guy's precociousness knew no bounds (LOL) and he eventually had Auerbach's full attention. Auerbach tried to get Wilt to go to Harvard to play college ball. Of course, the rule back then was that NBA teams got first dibs on drafting players from the colleges in the immediate surrounding areas of each NBA team (or something to that effect). That sneaky Red saw how awesome Wilt's talent was and he wanted to make sure that when Wilt eventually turned pro, he'd be a Celtic. Of course, the rule changed shortly thereafter so that NBA teams could draft players who played in high schools considered local to the nearest NBA Franchise. How might it have changed history if that rule had never been changed, and if Wilt had gone to Harvard for his stint as a college player? Can you imagine a Celtic team with Wilt Chamberlain AND Bill Russell? Chamberlain at center, Russell at power forward, plus Cousy, the two Jones's, Havlicek, Heinsohn, .... talk about jaw-dropping talent. Add Chamberlain to those Celtics teams and you'd have a roster that makes any other NBA team in history look like a sad mockery of talent by comparison. Furthermore, how differently would Wilt's career have been remembered if he had played under Auerbach, and he had won all those titles? Would there be any doubt that he was the single greatest player of all time? Likely not. Wilt would have his own standard of individual greatness that would be entirely untouchable. In terms of greatness, there would be Wilt, and then there would be everyone else.
So after reading Wilt's book and learning pretty much all there is to know about Wilt's career, as well as his thoughts and opinions about other players, coaches, and teams of his generation, I'm actually now convinced that he WASN'T the Greatest of All Time (or for quick reference the G.O.A.T.). There are a number of reasons why I now feel this way, and I'll go over each of them:
1) Wilt was NOT the greatest competitor. He actually admitted that he sometimes lacked motivation on the court and often had to set certain individual goals in order to keep things interesting for him (like trying to break scoring records, or leading the league in assists, or leading the league in rebounds, etc...). Otherwise, Wilt would get bored, frustrated, and eventually uninterested in the game of basketball. I mean, the guy flat out admitted that he sometimes lacked a killer instinct on the basketball court. Who says something like that? Certainly not someone who is trying to be considered the greatest player ever. This is damning evidence for those of us who would make a case for Wilt at the G.O.A.T.
I think that failing to win a championship more often than not, along with all the subsequent criticism he took for being a "loser" was something that drove him to seek new heights of greatness, both as an individual and from a team perspective. To Wilt's credit, he admittedly displayed a consistently strong sense of teamwork and believed in the concept of team basketball. This is ironic because he was so ridiculously dominant from an individual standpoint, but apparently Wilt was always a great teammate and he never felt that he placed his individual goals ahead of the team's goals. In truth, it was his coaches who should get the credit for Wilt taking so many shots and scoring so many points throughout his illustrious career. His early coaches felt that he was virtually unstoppable (which he basically was) and they told him to shoot, and shoot often. Because he was a very coachable player and tried to adapt his game to whatever the coach and the team needed from him, Wilt scored the hell out of the ball. Wilt was often criticized by the media for being a selfish, me-first scorer who didn't play team ball. In reality, Wilt's coaches should have been the ones to take the blame for Wilt shooting so much. In the end, none of them did. That leads me to reason number 2 why Wilt isn't the G.O.A.T.
2) When he lost, Wilt blamed everyone but himself. Maybe he always felt that he gave everything on the court and could never have done anything more to help his teams win more championships. Still, the way Wilt constantly blamed his coaches, other players, the refs, and bad luck for his team's failures... I find it somewhat offputting. Nobody likes a whiner and I sometimes got the sense that Wilt didn't want to own his failures, which is something that I find difficult to respect. Wilt had a lot of pride in himself and his accomplishments. He really didn't feel like he could have contributed more to the game and he hated all the criticism that he had to take over the years. Considering the racial tensions of the time, I'm sure a lot of the criticism was unfair, but I'm sure some of it wasn't, and apparently Wilt didn't want to hear any of it. Like it or not, that's the way the man felt, but I think he did himself a disservice by thinking that way, and it certainly weighs against him in the G.O.A.T. debate.
3) In the end, Wilt is NOT the G.O.AT. Why you ask? It's because I'm now convinced that there is no such player as the G.O.A.T. It is a fictitious and imaginary title that no longer holds any meaning to me. This is perhaps a conclusion that some of you may have already realized, and it's certainly the one I've settled on. Reading Wilt's book simply reminded me that basketball is ultimately a team sport. In a team sport, it's logical to conclude that too much focus cannot be placed on team accomplishments when discussing the greatness of individual players. This has to be taken into consideration when defining the meaning of the G.O.A.T.
Jordan won 6 titles and Wilt won 2 titles. What if the ball had bounced Wilt's way a few more times in so many of those tightly contested playoff series against the Celtics? What if Butch Van Breda Kolff's idiot @ss hadn't kept Wilt out of the game in the 4th quarter of game 7 in the 69' Finals? What if Wilt had been coached by one of the greatest coaches of all time like Red Auerbach, instead of some of the idiot coaches that Wilt had to suffer in his career. Wilt might have had 4, 5, or 6 titles; maybe more. That certainly would have changed history, wouldn't it? No, there's no G.O.A.T. and I see that clearly now. The only thing MJ has over Wilt are the rings, and that just doesn't carry enough weight for me to agree beyond a shadow of doubt that MJ was the better, greater player.
If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to pick a G.O.A.T. (unlikely as that may be, LOL), I would still choose Wilt. For all his greatness, Wilt was a flawed player. He lacked a killer instinct, and ultimately he lacked the wealth of championships to accompany his various individual accolades. Still, he was the single most impressive physical specimen the league has ever seen, and there was virtually nothing the man couldn't do on a basketball court. He accomplished everything one could hope to accomplish in an NBA career, and he did it with style, grace, and magnificence. Then, of course, there was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He's moved up a notch on my G.O.A.T rankings for sure. As I take some time to learn more about the Cap, he might even pass Wilt as the G.O.A.T., assuming I thought there was one to begin with.
There were just so many interesting things about this book and so many fascinating things that Wilt did on and off the court, I'll be here all night typing a novel of my own if I keep going. All in all, it was a joy to learn so much about the great Wilt Chamberlain (sometimes more than I cared to know, LOL), and it's a must-read for any student of basketball history, or any fan of the Big Dipper.
To Randy,
Thanks so much for sending this book my way. I appreciate it more than you know, and I hope that one day I can find a way to return the favor.
Your good friend,
Steve |
_________________
"It seems like it's changed...Andrew is thirsty to score and he can score. He has more of a scorer's mentality [than Gasol], so we'll take advantage of that." - Kobe Bryant on Bynum's passing Gasol in the Lakers' pecking order.
Last edited by lakeshowsd on Jul 26, 2010 - 02:47 AM PST; edited 4 times in total
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cuckooroller
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Post subject: RE: Why Wilt Chamberlain is NOT the G.O.A.T.
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 08:33 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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Steve,
I essentially agree with the premise that there is no G.O.A.T.. The most that I have ever allowed is that you can make an argument position by position, for maybe two, three or four players, but only for that position. One overall player, well, I find it a reach. I find it a reach because the only way that you could possibly make a comparison is plugging each player, one by one, into the same historic context, I mean the same team, playing the same opponents, in the same historical epoch, with the same rules, with the same referees, and a whole lot of other parameters, and then attempt direct comparisons...anything less begs opination, and that is exactly what people do, opine.
Failing the above possibility, and it is obviously not possible, then you can only attack the problem from a statistical viewpoint (though everybody carries water to their own position injecting anything useful, e.g., numbers of championships won, etc.). On pure statistics, Chamberlain is obviously the most dominant pro basketball player to have ever played the game, but this is a reductive argumentation, and therefore, I return to saying that, like you, I find it a waste of time to follow the chimera of a true G.O.A.T. being determinable. |
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Steve
Last edited by cuckooroller on Jul 25, 2010 - 08:44 AM PST; edited 1 time in total
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lakeshowsd
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Post subject: RE: Why Wilt Chamberlain is NOT the G.O.A.T.
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 08:41 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
Joined: Dec 20, 2008 Age: 30
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Steve,
Precisely. I agree with your points entirely. There are just too many variables to consider when attempting to choose 1 single player as the greatest of all time. Furthermore, comparing across eras is virtually impossible. With so many changes in the rules, styles of play, and a slew of other differences from Wilt's era, to MJ's, to the modern basketball era, I honestly don't know how one can honestly make a direct comparison between these players. It simply can't be done fairly. |
_________________
"It seems like it's changed...Andrew is thirsty to score and he can score. He has more of a scorer's mentality [than Gasol], so we'll take advantage of that." - Kobe Bryant on Bynum's passing Gasol in the Lakers' pecking order.
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lakerbloke
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 10:19 AM PST
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Laker GM
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Steve (LSD),
Thanks for spending the time to post such an informative and detailed article about Wilt. Before I go on, I will admit to not knowing much about Wilts career other than the achievements the man was able to accomplish, but you are perfectly spot on when you talk about too many intangibles to decide who is the GOAT. Whenever there is a thread that is started on here trying to determine who is the GOAT, you will seldom find any response from me, unless it is one like I am posting now to inform everyone that in my eyes, there is no GOAT.
There are just too many factors involved when trying to decide which criteria matters the most to determine GOAT, and inevitably, people will always disagree why the opposing posters information is not valid.
I am glad you are able to look beyond individual achievements and stats to come to this conclusion. It took a while for you to get there, lol, but the read was a great homage to A great player in Wilt. A deserved rep for you buddy. |
_________________
"you know what would look good on you?"
"Me..." --- Lakerbloke '09
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 02:09 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
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There might not technically be a GOAT...because it's by definition a subjective term but it makes discussing any sport more fun that's why we always do it.
It starts to wear on people when certain athletes take it to heart (which is only natural for the really talented one) and their singular aim is to be the GOAT. This is precisely the gift and curse of Jordan. Anyone after him will be compared to him rightly or wrongly. As a kid Kobe literally tried to copy everything about Jordan and over time he's matured a bit more so that he's tried to become his own player with his own legacy but there is no doubt he's still trying to chase MJ, that's obvious.
Lebron has been trying to chase MJ since he was a kid as well and the media has fed this to him so he actually believed it (maybe doesn't now thankfully).
But to put GOAT in more tangible terms, MJs GOAT status is largely not challenged because of a combination of tangible achievements in basketball. I'll try and list most of them and they're NOT in order
-Championships
-Individual statistics (one also must take into account position...i.e. a 7 foot center shooting 60% FG is not as impressive as a guard shooting 50% FG)
-MVP awards
-Finals MVP awards
-All NBA 1st and 2nd team selections
-All NBA defensive team selections
-Defensive Player of the Year awards
The intangibles are era in which one played, teammates one had, etc etc and those are much harder to argue for or against (but fun to argue nonetheless). So just take those tangible categories I listed (and there are probably a few I missed) and MJ basically dominates
Statistically, as a guard MJ is unquestionable the best. Just compare him to someone like the BIG O. MJ had a career of 30ppg (which would be higher if his Washington years are ignored) and he shot that on nearly 50% from the Field. Oscar shot a little bit lower percentage and had 5ppg less than MJ
Jerry West shot less of a percentage than the BIG O but had 27ppg (still less than MJ)...But one has to assume Jerry would of had 30+ppg as well if the there was a 3pt line in his day.
I won't keep going with comparing great players but when you combine all the tangibles MJ comes out on top every single time, and no one is even close except in my view Kobe (considering the tangibles).
I think all those tangible categories I listed also have to be weighted. Championships DO matter, they are not the be-all end-all because if they were Bill Russell would clearly be the greatest of all time but no one (except irrational celtic fan) claims Bill is the greatest of all time, i bet Bill would even admit he's not the greatest, just the most winningest.
Championships get weighted above all else, second would be statistics, and those would take up the most weight. The other categories matter but are weighted less than those first two. That is why Kobe is the closest to MJ, championships (5) and career stat-line (25ppg on 45.5% shooting). Those are close to BIG O numbers but Kobe has the rings to back that stat line up.
I forgot to mention other intangibles like just the pure excitement of watching certain players. MJ was the most exciting player to watch. He has a myriad of offensive moves and could display them with ease. His iconic air jordan image, while not done during a game, in actual games when he was young he's get CRAZY air. He could break down all the greats with his offensive moves and probably shut down most the great guards with his defense. The only other players I think that challenge him in terms pure excitement are Magic and Kobe. These 3 players made the game of basketball more than just a game. In those moments where they are going nuts on the court it feels like you're watching a miracle.
That feeling of watching MJ drain 6 3PTers against Portland...or the FLU game...or The Shot
Or how about watching Magic give a one-handed across the court BOUNCE pass to a fastbreaking teammate IN STRIDE....or watching him play EVERY position on the court in a FINALS game...or the countless no-look behind the back passes
Or how about watching Kobe drain in 81 (55 in one half) against a team that was actually trying and could of beat the Lakers in that game if he hadn't done that...dropping 81 all the while shooting 60% from the field and 53% from 3pt land) ....or how about watching him dismantle the best defensive team of the era in the 2001 Western Conference Finals against the Spurs...dropping 45points in game 1 and 39 in game3.
Or how about watching him drain in 19 consecutive points in the 3rd quarter of game3 of the 2010 Finals, second most all time, which was the only thing keeping the Lakers from getting blown out. This moment will unfortunately be forgotten because the Lakers lost that specific game but in that moment do you remember how you felt watching that? You could believe the types of shots he was taking AND making. It was an indescribable feeling, even the Celtics were shell-shocked and had to regroup...or how about watching him make 2 impossible shots in a row against the SUNs in the 2010 WCF to see the deal in game6
These are the types of moments that make us say "he's the greatest of all time" and it's these exciting moments that make us all love sports. Combine that with the tangibles to back up those moments and you've got the making of the GOAT.
MJ is it and might always be it. |
_________________
2000-2001 Kobe
28.5ppg 5.9rpg 5.0apg 1.7spg 46.4% FG
2000-2001 Shaq
28.7ppg 12.7rpg 3.7apg 2.8bpg 57.2% FG
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cuckooroller
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 02:16 PM PST
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Michael Jordan will never be the G.O.A.T. until he comes back from the grave and puts up more than 50 ppg, 25 rbd per game, 8 assists per game, and 4 blocks per game, over the course of an entire season. Chamberlain just smokes him, and try as anybody might, Jordan just never came close.
So, you see. Attempts to unilaterally and subjectively name somebody G.O.A.T. is just that, subjective and due to personal preferences. |
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Steve
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LKnight
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 02:54 PM PST
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Laker GM
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Wow LSD!
Great read.
I had to login just to rep you for this. I've never read Wilts book but I'll definetely look to pick it up after this.
Thanks for sharing history with us bro! |
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How dare you say something about Kobeeeee???
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Post subject: Re: RE: Why Wilt Chamberlain is NOT the G.O.A.T.
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 03:00 PM PST
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Laker GM
Joined: Dec 15, 2008
Posts: 3980
Location: Los Angeles
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cuckooroller wrote:
Steve,
I essentially agree with the premise that there is no G.O.A.T.. The most that I have ever allowed is that you can make an argument position by position, for maybe two, three or four players, but only for that position. One overall player, well, I find it a reach. I find it a reach because the only way that you could possibly make a comparison is plugging each player, one by one, into the same historic context, I mean the same team, playing the same opponents, in the same historical epoch, with the same rules, with the same referees, and a whole lot of other parameters, and then attempt direct comparisons...anything less begs opination, and that is exactly what people do, opine.
Failing the above possibility, and it is obviously not possible, then you can only attack the problem from a statistical viewpoint (though everybody carries water to their own position injecting anything useful, e.g., numbers of championships won, etc.). On pure statistics, Chamberlain is obviously the most dominant pro basketball player to have ever played the game, but this is a reductive argumentation, and therefore, I return to saying that, like you, I find it a waste of time to follow the chimera of a true G.O.A.T. being determinable.
I agree 100%. GOAT is essentially a broad term especially when it is on the basis of one overall player. I think there are several GOATS as you said in their respective positions. We can throw stats all over the place to argue one over the other, but it is purely subjective. |
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Lakers need to make a BIG MOVE! No bandaids......
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maraud
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 03:00 PM PST
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Laker GM
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cuckooroller wrote:
Michael Jordan will never be the G.O.A.T. until he comes back from the grave and puts up more than 50 ppg, 25 rbd per game, 8 assists per game, and 4 blocks per game, over the course of an entire season. Chamberlain just smokes him, and try as anybody might, Jordan just never came close.
So, you see. Attempts to unilaterally and subjectively name somebody G.O.A.T. is just that, subjective and due to personal preferences.
Steve,
You are right, and Wilt still owns the record book. These young bucks wont read anything pre jordan and if they looked at film of Wilt in College and the pro's they would need to eat their words. Wilt was a master in every facit of the game except free throws. There is no player after him that could even come close to his accomplishments and probably no one ever will even with the 4 years extra that they get by not attending college. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 03:06 PM PST
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Laker GM
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LSD,
I have to wait 120 min. before I can rep u on that masterful post. Great read man! Keep it up. Have a great Sunday my friend. |
_________________
Lakers need to make a BIG MOVE! No bandaids......
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LakerRRTX
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 03:17 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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Thank you LakeshowSD!
Welcome to the "There is No Damn Stinkin' GOAT" club. Maybe you have been there all along, but now I nominate you as president.
I know you didn't say that easily because you and I, along with others have made lengthy arguments in the past that if there is an individual GOAT, then it would have to be Wilt due to his overwhelming stats. I think this "no GOAT" approach should easily be the majority opinion of basketball fans everywhere, but for God only knows why, this stupid a$$ question will never go away. Why can't we all relax and enjoy players for who they are, in the situation they're in? The obsession with "who is the best?" is just an insane modern media invention that deserves to be ignored.
I liked your post so much that I just made you my sig! Thanks Steve! |
_________________
"Note to self: the more I play D, the better we'll be" - Andrew Bynum
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mike
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 04:07 PM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan
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| Jordan fans will only read his post to break it down and spin it in his favor.lol but I always said the whole Goat thing and the Jordan shadow is the reason the NBA is and will become less competitive.. No one wants to keep hearing they remind him of such and such than when the player doesn't win or live up to expectation they shoot them down and spit on them, what LeBron is doing will be the future of the NBA .besides everyone is tired of being compared and not being able to be themselves. Kobe a 5 time champ, 2 times finals mvp and scored 81 points a game still in the shadow of a guy who was in an easier conference back in the 90's and didn't win until the other great teams declined(Yes I pointed that out for Jordan stans to comment on) lol But great post man, Welcome to Top Buzz friend. |
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113
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 05:09 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
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mike wrote:
Jordan fans will only read his post to break it down and spin it in his favor.lol but I always said the whole Goat thing and the Jordan shadow is the reason the NBA is and will become less competitive.. No one wants to keep hearing they remind him of such and such than when the player doesn't win or live up to expectation they shoot them down and spit on them, what LeBron is doing will be the future of the NBA .besides everyone is tired of being compared and not being able to be themselves. Kobe a 5 time champ, 2 times finals mvp and scored 81 points a game still in the shadow of a guy who was in an easier conference back in the 90's and didn't win until the other great teams declined(Yes I pointed that out for Jordan stans to comment on) lol But great post man, Welcome to Top Buzz friend.
I'm the biggest Kobe fan there is, he's the single reason why I became a Lakers fan in the first place and in my eyes he's top2 all time and could beat out Jordan if he continues winning titles BUT I have to be realistic and fair when evaluating players and MJ is clearly better (at this point in Kobe's career).
I don't disagree that generally Kobe has had to come out of a tougher conference in reaching the Finals appearances he has but you also have to recognize that in the Finals themselves MJ had greater competition.
MJ beat out
1) Magic + Worthy
2) Clyde
3) Barkley + Kevin Johnson (who was VERY good at the time)
4) Gary Payton + Shawn Kemp (both in their prime)
5) Karl Malone + Stockton
6) Karl Malone + Stockton
What Jordan did in his finals appearances is nothing to sniff at
Kobe has beaten
1) Reggie
2) Iverson
3) Jason Kidd
4) Dwight Howard
5) Kevin Garnett + Ray Allen
Now, what Kobe has done is nothing to sniff at either but MJs competition was better in the Finals I think any fair analysis has to draw that conclusion. MJ has also clearly put up better stats in his Finals appearances than Kobe has.
I think the fact that everyone after MJ is compared to MJ and even players before MJ are compared to MJ speaks volumes about how good he truly is (unlike LeFraud) Jordan's play on the court is the reason he was hyped when he was playing and the reason he is still hyped now. Let's not be blinded as to what he was able to do, I remember his play, I remember how good he was. |
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BaadMaster
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 07:09 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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113 wrote:
There might not technically be a GOAT...because it's by definition a subjective term but it makes discussing any sport more fun that's why we always do it....
MJ is it and might always be it.
GREAT POST!!!
I might add -- the GOAT, in all sports, should be divided into modern tv and pre-modern tv eras.
I really have no idea how good Jerry West or Wilt Chamberlain were. They were not telecast very often (Wilt's 100 game was not even on TV) and it is a mystery how good they were in the course of a whole season.
Using this as a divide, then the triumvirate of Wilt, West and Russell were probably the pre-TV GOATS.
When you get into the modern era, it really boils down to three (in no particular order): Magic, Kobe and MJ. And until Kobe gets #7, MJ is still the modern GOAT.
Let the "season of chasing MJ" begin! |
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maraud
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 08:31 PM PST
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Laker GM
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BaadMaster wrote:
113 wrote:
There might not technically be a GOAT...because it's by definition a subjective term but it makes discussing any sport more fun that's why we always do it....
MJ is it and might always be it.
GREAT POST!!!
I might add -- the GOAT, in all sports, should be divided into modern tv and pre-modern tv eras.
I really have no idea how good Jerry West or Wilt Chamberlain were. They were not telecast very often (Wilt's 100 game was not even on TV) and it is a mystery how good they were in the course of a whole season.
Using this as a divide, then the triumvirate of Wilt, West and Russell were probably the pre-TV GOATS.
When you get into the modern era, it really boils down to three (in no particular order): Magic, Kobe and MJ. And until Kobe gets #7, MJ is still the modern GOAT.
Let the "season of chasing MJ" begin!
There is a ton of film around that you could watch on Wilt, West,Baylor, the Big O and others if you are really interested. |
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lakeshowsd
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 10:31 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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lakerbloke, LKnight, Dan, spankees, BaadMaster,
Thank you so much for the kind words and for the reps. It is much appreciated and I'm grateful to know that each of you found something worthwhile in my post. It does feel good to be a part of the "There is no G.O.A.T. club". It's the only practical conclusion one can draw, all things considered.
Along the lines of what Cuckoo said in an earlier post on this thread, if everything was the same for every player, and they all played with exactly the same rules, against the exact same competition, and with all other circumstances being virtually identical, then we might have enough of an even playing field to accurately and fairly determine a true G.O.A.T. Without a time machine, such a situation is obviously not possible and consequently, comparing across eras is also not possible. I would say as much to fans like 113 and other advocates of any one player as the G.O.A.T.
As pro basketball has proven over the decades to be an ever changing and evolving game, I now believe that the highest achievement any player can hope to attain is to be considered the greatest player from a very specific era or generation of basketball. In my view, any attempt to single out MJ, Wilt, Kareem or any other player as the one and only Greatest Player of All Time, no matter how seemingly logical your reasoning, is still nothing more than empty rationalization. The simple and most honest truth is that there is no G.O.A.T. and there never will be.
For those of you interested in basketball history, I'm currently reading Phil Jackson's book about the 2003-04 season. I'm about a quarter of the way through, and so far it's been a VERY intriguing read, with some juicy behind-the-scenes insights on the whole Shaq and Kobe feud, the Colorado incident, and many other interesting things that happened throughout the course of that season. When I'm finished with the book, I'll likely share some of Phil Jackson's insights, as well as some of my own thoughts here on the LTB.
With all his success in the recent years, it's very easy to forget just how selfish and immature Kobe was as a younger player in the league. Phil Jackson brings these observations to light in no uncertain terms. LOL. Would it surprise you to know that Phil twice approached Mitch Kupchak and demanded that Kobe be traded? That should give you an idea just how rocky things got between Kobe and Phil in the early years of their relationship as player and coach. Fascinating book thus far.
More on Wilt: As I said in my above post, Wilt released his autobiography in 1973, after after his final season in the NBA. Remarkably enough, Wilt went on accomplish many other things in his life after basketball. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia:
Quote:
After his basketball career, volleyball became Chamberlain's new passion: being a talented hobby volleyballer (albeit due to lack of technique, not as excellent as volleyball All-American Lakers team mate Keith Erickson) during his Lakers days, he became board member of the newly founded International Volleyball Association in 1974 and became its president one year later. As a testament to his importance, the IVA All-Star game was only televised because Chamberlain also played in it: he rose to the challenge and was named the game's MVP. He played occasional matches for the IVA Seattle Smashers before the league folded in 1979. However, Chamberlain had promoted the sport so effectively that he was named to the Volleyball Hall of Fame: he became one of the few athletes who were enshrined in different sports.
In addition, Chamberlain played a villainous warrior and counterpart of Arnold Schwarzenegger in the film Conan the Destroyer (1984), where his most remarkable spoken phrase is "thieves should be hanged": this caused his physician Dr. Lorber to jokingly greet Chamberlain with "thieves should be hanged" whenever they met. When million-dollar contracts became common in the NBA, Chamberlain increasingly felt he had been underpaid during his career. A result of this resentment was the 1997 book Who's Running the Asylum? Inside the Insane World of Sports Today (1997), in which he harshly criticized the NBA of the 1990s for being too disrespectful of players of the past.
Even far beyond his playing days, Chamberlain was a very fit person. In his mid-forties, he was able to humble rookie Magic Johnson in practice, and even in the 1980s, he flirted with making a comeback in the NBA. In the 1980–81 NBA season, coach Larry Brown recalled that the 45-year-old Chamberlain had received an offer from the Cleveland Cavaliers. When Chamberlain was 50, the New Jersey Nets had the same idea, and Chamberlain declined again. Chamberlain however participated in several marathons instead. He would stay an epitome of physical fitness for years to come, until his health rapidly worsened in 1999.
In reading his autobiography, I participated in a sort of journey into the world of the legendary Wilt Chamberlain. To bring closure to this experience, I'll be watching the movie Conan the Destroyer again sometime very soon. LOL |
_________________
"It seems like it's changed...Andrew is thirsty to score and he can score. He has more of a scorer's mentality [than Gasol], so we'll take advantage of that." - Kobe Bryant on Bynum's passing Gasol in the Lakers' pecking order.
Last edited by lakeshowsd on Jul 26, 2010 - 12:53 AM PST; edited 1 time in total
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makeman
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 11:00 PM PST
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Laker GM
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| Wow that was a lot of good information about Wilt and I agree that it's hard to say who is the greatest player ever, but I know one thing Wilt was a beast and if he played right now like he did when he was these guys age; it would be a major problem for the players today. |
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LakerRRTX
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2010 - 11:54 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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While the G.O.A.T. debates are fruitless, I enjoy comparisons of players by the position they played. However, that's even difficult across generations, or 'before tv explosion / after tv explosion' as BaadMaster put it. But at least those arguments make a little more sense and there is a bit more solid basis for them.
The other type of individual player comparison argument that makes at least some sense is by role function, such as who is the best rebounder, perimeter-defender, post-defender, passer, playmaker, shooter, scorer, ball-handler, shot-blocker, etc. There the possibilities are almost endless and are plenty interesting. Plus, it's also revealing to think about because someone like Michael Jordan never comes out as the clear "best" in any single category of the game like that and most of the time it's not even close. And if that's the case, then how in the hell can anyone make an out and out pronouncement of him being the greatest individual player of all time? It makes no sense. I'm not picking on Micheal either. The same is true for just about any player. Michael was definitely a great #2 scoring guard. Great arguments can be made that he's the best #2 ever. I don't mean to diminish him at all, but there are many other aspects to this wonderful team game.
The countless arguments that can be made regarding who was the best at a certain function within the game should be enough for any basketball fan. But for some reason, in the modern era we always want to take it further. And no matter how many pronouncements of "GOATness" are made, none of them necessarily make it true.
I liked what Derek Fisher said regarding discussions of who is the greatest. He understands where they come from, but he feels they are demeaning to the game and its great history. But he also said that as long as the discussions are there, then Kobe should be in the discussion. lol... |
_________________
"Note to self: the more I play D, the better we'll be" - Andrew Bynum
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lakeshowsd
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 01:15 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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Great points, Dan!
Everybody loves a good debate, so these position for position player comparisons can be very interesting. Personally, I think it makes a hell of a lot more sense to compare Kobe and MJ than Kobe and Lebron, or MJ and Wilt, or ANY other player comparison for that matter.
Kobe and MJ is a unique comparison because both players played the exact same position, enjoyed virtually all their success under the same great coach in Phil Jackson, played within the exact same offensive system, and played a very similar role within that system. Though they each technically played in different eras, MJ's era immediately preceded Kobe's era, so the differences in terms of the rules, style of play, and other factors are marginal. I know that Kobe hates to be compared to MJ but because of all their similarities as players, it's a very natural and reasonable comparison to make; I daresay more so than any other direct player to player comparison in the history of the game.
That you chose to use one of my quotes as your signature is very cool form of flattery. In the past I've used one of the other Steve's (Cuckooroller) more hilarious quotes as my signature, so there is a precedence for what you did. Very cool, man. |
_________________
"It seems like it's changed...Andrew is thirsty to score and he can score. He has more of a scorer's mentality [than Gasol], so we'll take advantage of that." - Kobe Bryant on Bynum's passing Gasol in the Lakers' pecking order.
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LakerRRTX
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 03:06 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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^^ Yes.. and Cuckooroller has had countless great lines to quote on here!
I don't mean to flatter at all, it's just that this G.O.A.T. issue is kind of an NBA pet peeve for me and you expressed the issues surrounding it so openly and succinctly. The incessant desire to single out players instead of just appreciating team play is an aspect of the modern NBA fanbase that really tears down the game IMO. I know I'm kind of a bore about it. But hopefully I'm not too overly crazy on it. I know it's something that a lot of fans love to do and to some degree it's a 'to each his own' kind of issue. I fought the G.O.A.T. battle for a long damn time, taking the approach that if it's anyone, then it has to be Wilt with all those staggering and broadly based individual stats. But eventually I came to the same conclusion as you: that no one will win this argument and the premise for the argument doesn't make any sense anyway!
I shouldn't be so redundant. I'll go chill now.  Thanks again Steve. |
_________________
"Note to self: the more I play D, the better we'll be" - Andrew Bynum
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Tidal_Wave
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 01:46 PM PST
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Casual Laker Fan
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GREAT POST !!!
I agree with the no-GOAT.
I have read the 3 books written by Wilt and his life on and off court were fascinating.
I think Wilt didn't win more rings because sometimes he lacked the killer instinct that MJ and Kobe had/have.
Because for him life was beyond a basketball court instead for Kobe,MJ,Jerry West, Bill Russell they lived for winning the championship they wanted it more.
In his first boook he said:
"I wish I had won all those championships, of course, but I really think I grew more as a man in defeat than Russell did in victory."
"I wouldn't trade my self-awreness and peace of mind for all his world championship rings and playoff checks combined."
Maybe if he had focused more on basketball he would have won more titles.
But maybe he wouldn't have the same charisma.
I believe that things happen in life for a reason, and if Wilt had won more rings early in his career probably he would not move to the Lakers.
So I believe that Wilt gave a lot to the Lakers, leading a team of old players to an incredible title with a record of 33 straight wins.
He was the captain of the 71/72 team and was the start of a great run in Los Angeles. In 75 Kareem come along maybe influenced by the move by Wilt.
In 1980 Magic appears with the showtime and then in 96 another great center Shaq and Kobe join forces and rest we all know.
I think that all the adversity that the Lakers faced in Los Angeles in the 60's and finally suprassed with a title in 72 defined the tradition of a team.
Because as we all know adversity makes us stronger.
In conclusion we should embrace the great career of Wilt and everything he gave to our ball club.
I wrote a bit and maybe it isn't well written because this is a fascinating matter. |
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SPQR
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 02:01 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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Steve,
Really terrific post. I would rep you if I could....but ive used up my quota with you long ago, lol.
I agree with the thoughts you expressed so eloquetly. Wilt was indeed just a few calls, a few plays away from winning more than the two rings he eventually got. I also got the impression that he never thought he was to blame for any losses. I remember reading some books about Magic and Bird where they specifically stated, "I blew that game," or "I blew that series." It is a type of honest introspection that seems perhaps beyond Wilt.
I also wonder if his position as such a goliath, coupled with the fact that he was so hated contributed to his mindset of 'never' being at fault for any of teams basketball failures. As an aside, I also wonder if Kobe or MJ would admit to taking the blame for any failures they had during their careers, lol.
A couple of observations on his observations. I wonder what Elgin would say about Wilts weakness's? I wonder if other players agree with what Wilt said about Elgin? Wilt and Elgin did not get along so well and Wilt could certainly hammer those he did not get along with. Was what he said really true? I don't know.
I remember when Magic first came along, when he won his first title, Wilt said he could become the greatest player in NBA history. A position Wilt kind of occupied at that time. But as Magic won more and more and actually threated to become the best of all time, Wilt changed a bit. He began to downplay Magic. He said, "When defending Magic, just defend the pass in the area he is NOT looking at and you can slow him down." Lol. I found that an interesting comment. You could almost see Wilt deciding to fight for his spot atop the GOAT list.
Wilt was certainly a complex man with many layers of personality.
Yep, Red wanted Wilt. He knew greatness when he saw it. I am sure he had wet dreams about what could be accomplished with Wilt playing for Boston. As a Lakers fan, I am glad he did not go there. I think it would have given them another ring and cost us one from the 70s.
You are very welcome for the book, Steve. The moment I read you say how much you admired and loved Wilt, I knew I was going to get that for you. I enjoyed reading it as well and finished it very fast. I am glad you had the same experience. Wilt and his co author did a great job in keeping it interesting and fast moving. His blunt assesment of others was interesting and always made you want to read the next page. |
_________________
All you've gotta do is baby kick off your shoes and lay down.
Climb up here with me and let's forget about sleep, and lay down.
- Sleazy Bed Track: The Bluetones.
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lakeshowsd
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 03:37 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
Joined: Dec 20, 2008 Age: 30
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Tidal Wave,
Thanks for the the compliment and I'm glad you enjoyed the post. So you've read Wilts other books, huh? I wonder how you would rate them compared to his original autobiography in 1973? You are absolutely correct that Wilt was very clear when describing how he felt about the importance of basketball in his life. While basketball was his priority for many years, it was certainly not always the top priority. Unlike other players who often enter into the G.O.A.T debate (Russell, Jordan, Kobe, etc...), Wilt never felt that basketball was of such singular importance as to be viewed as an all-essential, life and death struggle. Such a mentality is akin to not having the "killer instinct" that you referred to in your above comment. Still, for admittedly not having a killer instinct, no player from his generation was more feared and no player was more individually dominant than Wilt Chamberlain.
Randy,
I had a feeling that we would have similar thoughts and observations about the various different subjects mentioned in this book. As much as I learned about Wilt from this book, I can't help but have more questions about the man, his thoughts, and his opinions. Perhaps I need to read his other books and search for answers there. Thank you for sharing that quote from Wilt, in addition to your own comments. Since the book ends in 1973, there's certainly a lot of Wilt's life after basketball that is left out of the storytelling, and much of it is fascinating I'm sure. I'm curious what was the extent of his relationship with Magic. Were they good friends? An excerpt from Wikipedia mentions that Wilt "humbled" Magic in practice when Magic was a rookie and Wilt was in his mid 40's. I'm very curious to know the full details of that encounter, as well as any other fun and interesting facts from Wilt's life after the events in his original autobiography.
Thank you very much for the words of kindness. There have been times in the last year when I've wanted to rep one of your own masterful posts, but because I too have met my quota for repping you, that's no longer an option. Still, I very much appreciate the sentiment and I'm glad you found my post a worthwhile one. |
_________________
"It seems like it's changed...Andrew is thirsty to score and he can score. He has more of a scorer's mentality [than Gasol], so we'll take advantage of that." - Kobe Bryant on Bynum's passing Gasol in the Lakers' pecking order.
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OCLakerfan8
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 03:37 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
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Quote:
In reading his autobiography, I participated in a sort of journey into the world of the legendary Wilt Chamberlain. To bring closure to this experience, I'll be watching the movie Conan the Destroyer again sometime very soon. LOL
LOL "Thieves should be hanged." Best line ever!
Good Read LSD, and I agree 100% I've always thought the fans who automatically ordaine Jordan as the GOAT hands down were being presumptiuous. It really is an impossible task to compare Jordan to every other great player out there. What happens if Jordan played in Bill Russell's era, I mean Jordan never could be the Celtics when he was younger. I've mentioned this before but its funny that Kareem has pretty much the same acomplishments as Jordan but he is almost never mentioned in the GOAT debate. I think that is a crime and an insult to ol' Cap. |
_________________
"Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more."
-General George S. Patton
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Tidal_Wave
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 04:22 PM PST
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Casual Laker Fan
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@lakeshowsd: in relation to the other books I must say that the first one (1973) is the best. It was honest as you said and a bit naive because he only was 37 but in the others books Wilt obviously matured even more.
A View From Above (1991): In this book Wilt expresses his opinions in a variety of matters. In the first book there were some of these opinions but in this book Wilt is even more controverse and talks about everything from basketball and life. All I can say is that Wilt existed beyond the basketball court even after he retired , but the same can't be said about other great athletes. He tells his stories of playing Volleyball.
Who's Running The Asylum? (1997): This book has a premise that is ---> "sports today are getting worse and old days were great". He expected the media to give more credit to the old players and don't hype new players. He defends that the best players are the ones that can defend and attack. But this book his mainly about the 90's in the NBA. But it has other subjects.
Some quotes:
"Enthusiasm can't be taught but can be caught."
"Where there's a Wilt, there's a way."
"They say nobody's perfect. They also say practise
makes perfect. I wish "they" would make up their minds."
"Love of money may come later on in life,
but love of sports should come first."
"No matter what class you're in, you get there the
same time, but by flying coach you get there a lot richer." |
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lakeshowsd
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 04:22 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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OC,
LOL, I'm planning to watch Conan the Destroyer next weekend. It's been so many years since I last saw it that I barely remember the movie at all, so it should be good fun to watch Wilt do his acting thing. LOL.
You made a great point about how MJ most likely wouldn't have beaten the Celtics if he had been in the shoes of Wilt, Oscar Robinson, Jerry West, or Elgin Baylor back in the 1960's. I mean if a superior talent like Wilt, who would consistently drop 40+ point games on the Celtics year after year, couldn't beat them, what hope would MJ have had? In all likelihood, MJ would have ended up just like the Big O, West, Baylor, Wilt and other great players of that generation; with 1 or 2 titles, great career stats, and nobody talking about him being the G.O.A.T.
Furthermore, what if we could replace MJ with a prime Wilt on those great Bulls teams of the 1990's? How awesome would they have been with Phil coaching Wilt, Scottie, and all those other great defensive role-players? It would have been almost like Shaq and Kobe before Shaq and Kobe. LOL |
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"It seems like it's changed...Andrew is thirsty to score and he can score. He has more of a scorer's mentality [than Gasol], so we'll take advantage of that." - Kobe Bryant on Bynum's passing Gasol in the Lakers' pecking order.
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lakeshowsd
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 04:32 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
Joined: Dec 20, 2008 Age: 30
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Tidal Wave,
Haha. Those Wilt quotes were awesome. I'll definitely check out Wilt's other books, though by the sound of that last one, Wilt was in some ways a grumpy old man during the 1990's. Sort of like when old people brag about how things were so much better in the "olden times". LOL. Regardless, I'll read them because I'm such a big fan of Wilt's. Thank you for that last post and I'll give you a much deserved rep for it. |
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"It seems like it's changed...Andrew is thirsty to score and he can score. He has more of a scorer's mentality [than Gasol], so we'll take advantage of that." - Kobe Bryant on Bynum's passing Gasol in the Lakers' pecking order.
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OCLakerfan8
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 05:01 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan
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| LSD the one glaring weakness of the 90s bulls was that they had no center. They already had one of the greatest wing players in Pippen. People always undervalue Pippen and his skill claiming he is just an result of Jordan's greatness. IMO pairing Pippen with Wilt would have been amazing. That 90s bulls team would have been even more dominant with Wilt than with Jordan and would have been pretty much impossible to beat. |
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"Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more."
-General George S. Patton
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 05:12 PM PST
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Laker GM
Joined: Dec 15, 2008
Posts: 3980
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votes: 34
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Gotta love Wilt in Conan the Destroyer. Classic!
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Lakers need to make a BIG MOVE! No bandaids......
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maraud
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 09:44 PM PST
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Laker GM
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SPQR wrote:
Steve,
Really terrific post. I would rep you if I could....but ive used up my quota with you long ago, lol.
I agree with the thoughts you expressed so eloquetly. Wilt was indeed just a few calls, a few plays away from winning more than the two rings he eventually got. I also got the impression that he never thought he was to blame for any losses. I remember reading some books about Magic and Bird where they specifically stated, "I blew that game," or "I blew that series." It is a type of honest introspection that seems perhaps beyond Wilt.
I also wonder if his position as such a goliath, coupled with the fact that he was so hated contributed to his mindset of 'never' being at fault for any of teams basketball failures. As an aside, I also wonder if Kobe or MJ would admit to taking the blame for any failures they had during their careers, lol.
A couple of observations on his observations. I wonder what Elgin would say about Wilts weakness's? I wonder if other players agree with what Wilt said about Elgin? Wilt and Elgin did not get along so well and Wilt could certainly hammer those he did not get along with. Was what he said really true? I don't know.
I remember when Magic first came along, when he won his first title, Wilt said he could become the greatest player in NBA history. A position Wilt kind of occupied at that time. But as Magic won more and more and actually threated to become the best of all time, Wilt changed a bit. He began to downplay Magic. He said, "When defending Magic, just defend the pass in the area he is NOT looking at and you can slow him down." Lol. I found that an interesting comment. You could almost see Wilt deciding to fight for his spot atop the GOAT list.
Wilt was certainly a complex man with many layers of personality.
Yep, Red wanted Wilt. He knew greatness when he saw it. I am sure he had wet dreams about what could be accomplished with Wilt playing for Boston. As a Lakers fan, I am glad he did not go there. I think it would have given them another ring and cost us one from the 70s.
You are very welcome for the book, Steve. The moment I read you say how much you admired and loved Wilt, I knew I was going to get that for you. I enjoyed reading it as well and finished it very fast. I am glad you had the same experience. Wilt and his co author did a great job in keeping it interesting and fast moving. His blunt assesment of others was interesting and always made you want to read the next page.
SPQR,
There was no way that Red could get Wilt, even if he gutted the entire Celtics team. Abe Saperstein and Eddie Gotleib were partners. When Wilt quit Kansas he could not play until his grad year (NBA rule at that time) Gotleib called Saperstein and got Wilt 100K to play with his Harlem Globetrotters for one year, when he would be eligable to play in the NBA. The next year Wilt played for the Phila Warriors ( the Warriors owned his rights due to another NBA ruling) |
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SPQR
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2010 - 10:46 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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Maraud,
Oh yeah, I understand. You are correct. I was just commenting on Steve talking about Red's plan to get Wilt to play for a college where the Celtics would have had his draft rights. As Steve said, they changed that rule shortly thereafter. I am certainly glad clever Red's plan never worked out.
Can you imagine if they still had that rule? lol. Then college players could to the schools they wanted in order to get drafted by their favorite NBA team. Now wouldn't that be interesting? lol. |
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Climb up here with me and let's forget about sleep, and lay down.
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LakerRRTX
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 27, 2010 - 12:12 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer
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OCLakerfan8 wrote:
LSD the one glaring weakness of the 90s bulls was that they had no center. They already had one of the greatest wing players in Pippen. People always undervalue Pippen and his skill claiming he is just an result of Jordan's greatness. IMO pairing Pippen with Wilt would have been amazing. That 90s bulls team would have been even more dominant with Wilt than with Jordan and would have been pretty much impossible to beat.
OC, OMG.. You just gave me this vision of Wilt and Rodman rebounding on the same team! You effin kidding me? Nobody else gets any boards. Both of them have to be mentioned in a discussion of the best rebounders ever.
Great points by the way about how absurd it is to gauge the career of a player apart from figuring in the contributions of their teammates to their success. |
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"Note to self: the more I play D, the better we'll be" - Andrew Bynum
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