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ReliveThe3PEAT
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Post subject: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 24, 2009 - 10:57 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer



Joined: Jul 19, 2008 Age: 18
Posts: 14000
   votes: 67
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Quote:
Lakers star Kobe Bryant regrets that his 2007 trade demand became public.
"The only thing I regret was how public it had to become," Bryant told the Orange County Register. "It was something that I'd been dealing with internally for quite some time and me wanting them to make moves, as was said to me (upon re-signing in 2004). Those things were not happening, it felt like I was just out there showcasing and doing my individual thing, and they had no aspirations to spend money to try to bring a championship here.
"So I felt like something had to be said so we could get the ball rolling here. Get people to start talking about it, and the city becomes a little more impatient with the situation, and hopefully we'll get something done. And to their credit, they made a great acquisition in Pau (Gasol) and another great acquisition in Trevor (Ariza). They went out this summer and spent the money to get Ron (Artest) and locked in Lamar (Odom). To their credit, they did the right things."
Less than two years after Bryant's trade request made national headlines, the Lakers won the 2009 NBA title.
Full Article HERE
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_________________ "If you're not strong enough, you shouldn't be fighting with me. If you can't match my strength then why try and test me?" - Ron Artest on altercation with Paul Pierce, moments before tip-off.
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SPQR
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Post subject: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 04:10 AM PST
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Laker GM



Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Pennsylvania
  votes: 109
Status: Offline
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Kobe's comment that the only regrets he made things public has still shows that as great as he is as a player, he is just as hollow as a person.
That period in time and Kobe's childish, selfish behavior was probably the nadir of so many rotten things he had done in the last decade.
Here he was, a player with three rings already, a dynasty had just broken up and he wants to be a championship contender immediatly. He did not have the intellegence, common sense or selflessness to understand the reality that it does take a few years to assemble a championship team in any sport after one breaks up, that you can't just wiggle your nose like Samantha Stevens on bewitched and make it so.
He somehow forgot that Shaq, a player with NO rings, waited patiently for Kobe to develop over the years to the point where they could win a title. He forgot that Shaq did not demand to trade him like Kobe did Andrew Bynum for a more experienced player who could have helped Shaq get him that elusive ring he had not won yet. Kobe showed how classless he was and how short a memory he has and how it was all about Kobe. Instead Kobe lets some fans tape him dissing a teenage kid like Drew, who probably looked up to him knowing full well it would hit the media. What a slimeball move. Kobe (already a three time champion) somehow forgot to extend to Drew the courtesy of patience that Shaq gave him.
Then when the Lakers didnt rush precipitously to try build a team (and lose their future by trading Drew) he demanded out. He did not care about the fans in LA that worshipped his every move nor about a team, owner and organization that backed him to the hilt during his darkest hour. The team that flew his golden a** on a chartered jet at their expense while Kobe had to defend himself against rape charges in Colorado. The team that also decided to take him over Shaq, a player he could not stand playing with anymore. All this was so easily forgotten because in the Great Man's estimation the team did not move fast enough to suit his precious needs to get him that post Shaq ring on his time table. What a disgrace. What a selfish, sad person he must be.
Kobe says in the article he "hasn't changed much." I believe it after reading his comment. I had hoped that maybe even Kobe had finally learned something by the age of 31. His new comments about his puerile actions during this period show he is incapable of understanding anything but having everyone do what he deems correct. It also shows that if for some reason things collapsed here in LA, he would forget his fans, his team and all his success here in a minute, become Mr. Petulant again and high tail it out of here as fast as he can.
Kobe says he hasn't changed much. He is right.
What a great player, what a dedicated, driven athlete, what a slimy, lousy person.
As much as I admire him on the court, I also pity him just as much off it. It must be a very lonely, warped, twisted, paranoid world inside that man's head. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
Last edited by SPQR on Oct 25, 2009 - 04:27 AM PST; edited 4 times in total
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SPQR
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Post subject: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 04:13 AM PST
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Laker GM



Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Pennsylvania
  votes: 109
Status: Offline
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| edited by me. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 05:07 AM PST
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Serious Laker Fan


Joined: Jan 26, 2009
Posts: 464

   votes: 4
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| i agree with you on alot of what you said SPQR but i knew exactly how he felt and so did the rest of us when he struggled from 05 to 07. he went 3 very long seasons pretty quiet and played his heart out but im sure he was just tired of losing. anyone would be with the squad we had a few years ago. im sure if u were in his shoes and u had all the talent he had you wouldnt want it to go to waste(to a certain extent because he did play his heart out for us at least) i kinda felt for him when he made those trade demands. not a fan of how he did it but because why he did it. all superstars do it. garnett bitched for about 4 or 5 season about how he hated losing before he got traded to the celtics. he even said those comments during interviews live and did anyone crucify him? no cuz its not kobe. even MJ complained to the bulls about getting talent. lebron is doing it now. the list will go on forever but the point im trying to make is that kobe just wanted to win and that also shows a part of his motivation. im not tryin to say your wrong because i think this can go both ways im just stating my point of view thats all. |
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SPQR
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 05:16 AM PST
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Laker GM



Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Pennsylvania
  votes: 109
Status: Offline
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Renteria,
Comparing Kobe to Garnett or others is not valid.
Sorry, but Kobe did so much worse than Garnett and he OWED the Lakers so very much for how they stood for him during his Colorado nightmare. He was also a three time NBA Champion. How many rings did Garnett have when he bitched? Garnett did not bust on a teenage teamate to strangers with video cams. Your Garnett analogy does not hold any water at all. Kobe was and obviously still is a cold, hard, selfish, arrogant pr*ck and no amount of rationalizing can erase the facts of how he behaved. Nor does his transcendant play on court give him a pass for being that pr*ck.
The fact that he is not sorry for his behavior, but just sorry that he went public with it shows he will never be anything than what he has always been, even at the age of 31. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 05:33 AM PST
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Serious Laker Fan


Joined: Jan 26, 2009
Posts: 464

   votes: 4
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| well ill always have love for kobe. you can put me on the ignorant boat with him but to me i think he loves this organization and it shows when he plays the game. |
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PlzOPH3T
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 06:20 AM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan


Joined: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 944
    votes: 16
Status: Offline
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SPQR, i really think Kobe did what he could to make the team better during the 06-07 season, and in the end it blew up in his face. He scored less than he did in 05-06, and he assisted more. The Lakers started off 26-13, and it looked like they were on the fast track to another title run. Then everything collapsed and the Lakers finished with a WORSE record than the previous season.
Factor in the historic 7-game choke job vs the Suns, throw in a little egotistic and sucky Smush Parker, do-nothing Brian Cook, rock hands Kwame Brown, a total work in progress Andrew Bynum, and Luke Walton getting starters minutes. Also consider this: Kobe entered his athletic prime and the team was going in the wrong direction as of the summer of 2007. A proud athlete might just want out of that hellhole.
Yes, he should have been patient with Bynum in retrospect. But there are 9 years separating them in age. 7 years seperated Shaq from Kobe, and let's face it, quality big men have a much wider window than guards.
I'm not saying Kobe was right to demand a trade and turn his back on an organization that gave him so much, but I am advocating for an athlete who has a supernatural drive to be the best. An athlete who puts his work in at 4:30 every morning. It's understandable. When you want to win more than every one of your teammates combined, that can be frustrating. You feel out of place. As of the summer of 2007, Kobe felt out of place. |
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gemfow
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 11:07 AM PST
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Laker GM


Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 3718
Location: Maryland

  votes: 46
Status: Offline
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SPQR: I do agree with some of the things you posted. I can't really agree with the analogy of Shaq having to wait patiently for him to develop because of a few things. The Lakers had Van Exel, Eddie Jones Kobe off the bench and some pretty viable pieces, they were contenders, but Del harris' whole gameplan was feed Shaq and make everyone else spot up. On top of that Shaq didn't have the taste of three championships under his belt and then go down to a team where he had to do absolutely everything to carry the team to the playoffs, I wonder if any other player could have done that in this era like Kobe did.
I personally felt that Drew was wronged by a overly frustrated Kobe who felt that the Lakers kept passing up on different players who could have helped out. I remember reading an article that Kobe was saying it was frustrating hearing how certain players would tell him that they wantt o come to LA, like a Bron Davis and Artest a Jason Kidd, Boozer, etc but that the Lakers kept turning their noses up at these deals. I'm glad that Kobe finally said something, not co be confused with me agreeing on how he did it though. People call Mitch a genius for getting Pau Gasol, but we could have had Isiah Thomas as our GM and he would have made that same deal, bottom line is that we were lucky and Pau Gasol allowed us to keep Kobe, him and the development of Drew, thank goodness Drew is a strong willed guy and turned Kobe's antics into something positive for himself.
As far as loyalty is concerned, I'm on the fence when it comes to loaylty in sports business. Being loyal to the city and fans is a little different than being loywal to an organization. I personally believe that the only two Lakers who would have been able to be granted a charter jet by the organization would have been Kobe and Shaq and that's because they brought fans to the seats which meant money. If Rick Fox had been in trouble in Colorado, can we say United or Continental airlines first class? The organization had no choice but to kiss Kobe's @$$ because he was about to be a free agent and Shaq being the lazy guy that he was rarely worked hard during the off season and was even getting older and slower. That to me says it was a business decion to let Kobe use the jet, not loyalty. |
_________________ "I got the ball with like with eight seconds left to go in the game, I passed it right back like a hot potatoe." - Andrew Bynum after Kobe hit the go ahead shot to win the game against Boston.
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Mamba1024
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 11:45 AM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan


Joined: Jul 07, 2008
Posts: 707

   votes: 3
Status: Offline
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SPQR wrote:
Renteria,
Comparing Kobe to Garnett or others is not valid.
Sorry, but Kobe did so much worse than Garnett and he OWED the Lakers so very much for how they stood for him during his Colorado nightmare. He was also a three time NBA Champion. How many rings did Garnett have when he bitched? Garnett did not bust on a teenage teamate to strangers with video cams. Your Garnett analogy does not hold any water at all. Kobe was and obviously still is a cold, hard, selfish, arrogant pr*ck and no amount of rationalizing can erase the facts of how he behaved. Nor does his transcendant play on court give him a pass for being that pr*ck.
The fact that he is not sorry for his behavior, but just sorry that he went public with it shows he will never be anything than what he has always been, even at the age of 31.
I agree 100% with you Randy. It took me a while to notice Kobe as a selfish, ignorant son-of-a-b*tch, because I was so young at the times he was bad, I just never paid attention to his bad decisions growing up. But when I started to mature I noticed he was a d*ck, especially when he made that "Trade Bynum" video.
I understand where he was coming from, I really do, I too am a super ultra competitive guy, so I know how it feels how to win, how great it feels. But the way he did it was my only concern, not his intentions. Because it was Kobe, everyone ganged up on him and hated him for a while, and for good reason: because he is Kobe, a little kid, and ignorant d*ck.
This still 27-year old kid made a very insensitive, very ignorant, very incompetent statement to the Laker organization, whom Randy said defended him even through his darkest days, and to a teenage Bynum, who actually never did anything bad and was probably already working hard on his game, and was supposed to be the team's future. This child, who obviously never matured, even until now, who is as gifted as they come, who has been defended and loved by his own organization and fans all this time, even through all his selfish antics, disgraced all who loved, respected, and defended him no matter what. I highly doubt he even cares about his fans or anyone else. He only cares about himself, his needs, his wants, just him, himself, and Kobe. |
_________________ "I mean the guy has every skill...that you could want." - Stu Lantz on Kobe Bryant
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urkle9
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 11:49 AM PST
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Laker GM

Joined: Oct 06, 2008
Posts: 3651

  votes: 16
Status: Offline
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There is a difference between Kobe and the rest of the so called elite players in the league. He genuinely cares about his legacy and how he is perceived in history. People just say, hey i wanna win a ring, but kobe really wants to win. Should he have made it public, probably not, was he right? Absolutely, notice how Bynum came into the season... made vast improvements, who else was gonna light the fire under AB's azz. He doesnt seem like a self motivated person..Seems like he has to be driven by people. I'm pretty sure if AB went to a lottery team, he wouldnt be as successful.
There is a reason why this team didnt lose 3 in a row last season, People like Kobe dont let the team become complacent and lazy. So as much as people thinks he is a ****. I'm ok with that, not everyone can be a nice guy. Usually the people you appreciate most in life are the people that are harsh with you. |
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KBLakers24
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 11:53 AM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan


Joined: Jul 31, 2009 Age: 14
Posts: 962

   votes: 2
Status: Offline
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| Kobe doesn't regret the trade demands, he regrets how public it became. I think he just about had it with his team, and since he had scrub players unlike today, he failed to make them better as players. He was just about to go until a very special someone came along... ;D |
_________________ John: "Of all the greats you have coached, how do you feel with a guy like this willing to hit shots like that in those situations?"
Phil: "He's lucky. He's very, very lucky."
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SPQR
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 05:19 PM PST
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Laker GM



Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Pennsylvania
  votes: 109
Status: Offline
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Anyone can defend Kobe. Its not that hard. But actions speak louder than words. And remember, Kobe did a lot more than just these two incidents. I could go on and on and on with all the things he has done since he got here. There has to come a time when people stop rationalizing and making excuses for selfish, childish, petulant behavior and call a spade a spade. Kobe had three rings already. He couldn't be a little patient with the team that backed him to hilt in his darkenst moment? Give me a break. Kobe wanted to win right away after the breakup of the threepeat team? How was that gonna happen. Only a selfish jerk would not expect the team to take two or three years to rebuild, which is exactly what happened in the end. But then since the moment he has gotten here he has carried on as a selfish jerk in so many ways.
You know, at 31, with four rings (including his coveted post Shaq ring) one would have hoped that Kobe could look back and see his mistakes. He could have said, "yeah, looking back I was dead wrong in what I did with Drew, and I should have been more patient and loyal to the organization in rebuilding, especially considering I had three rings already and what they did for me. I am honestly sorry I did those things."
Instead he comes out with his crap about going public instead of keeping his trade demand private. What a joke. I bet he feels he was just soooo mangnamimous with his 'regret'. Kobe, you really are one of kind.
But no, even with his new ring and passage of time that proved him dead wrong, he is still clueless. He is oblivious to what he did and how he acted.
Kobe had a great chance here to grow up and make amends. To show us he is a better person that he used to be. Does it surprise me that he didn't? Of course not. He is what he is and can't be anything else. He blew it...again. What else could he do being that he is Kobe Bryant?
You know, Kobe always wanted a nickname. He is clueless about that to. He never understood you can't give yourself a nickname-Mamba. You have to have it bestowed on you and it has to stick. Instead of his self appointed name of Mamba, a nickname that would actually fit him appropriatly would be Clueless Kobe Bryant.
The best thing that one can say about Kobe the person is this: He is a pr*ck, but he is our pr*ck. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
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Cobbler
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 06:09 PM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan


Joined: Oct 18, 2006
Posts: 734
     votes: 14
Status: Offline
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You never air your dirtly laundry in public. It's a classless act. There is no doubt Kobe has issues and you cannot just shrug them off as a will to win. As a ball player between the lines there is none better. As a teammate on the personal level you can see changes he is making and thats all for the good but SPQR is correct in that he just touched on the surface (talking in public) and not the underlying reasons that made him do so. Kobe hasn't changed because it's his nature to do so. He hired a crew to advise him. The crux of the problem is they are advising on "image" and not substance. They address the public persona not the person. They are changing the surface but not the underlying aspect that created the surface to begin with. There are lines you just dont cross with respect to decency. You don't air you laundry in the public, you don't out your teammate to police to deflect attention etc etc.
This is a sign of our times where athletes (many more than just Kobe) are coddled and pampered form their prospective teenage years all the way through their adult careers. Get in any trouble, people will take care of it for you. Do anything thought reprehensible by the community and it wil be either be shoved under the carpet or explained away as he's a different beed. As long as you perform on the stage, well turn the cheek. You see the very same thing in the entertainment world.
That being said, the man is the best in the game. I admire his determination and work ethic. I am absolutely glad he is on our team. His competitiveness is 2nd to none and that is awesome to see on the hardwood. Being able to control that competitivness in the public and personall arena... he's not so good at. Maybe as he grows older and eventually gets away from the game he will realize that and make an effort to work on it. |
_________________ "The obvious thing is you understand the season is meant for a growth process,and you hope your playoff position is good enough you can make an effort in the playoffs." Phil Jackson
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Axle
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 06:27 PM PST
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Laker GM

Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 4095
  votes: 8
Status: Offline
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| I competely disagree with SPQR and I agree with some of the other posts that if Kobe had not acted the way he did, we Laker fans wouldn't have celebrated a championship last year. Kobe had to do what was necessary to put pressure on management to take action or trade him. Working for a large company and being in high management for years, I know that you have to apply pressure if you want anything in life. Kobe was correct to put the pressure or it would have taken another twenty years like it took the Celtics to win another championship. I only agree with SPQR on only one thing and that is that when you take a team apart you can't do it over night. BUT! I will say that what Kobe done was the work of a genious to either take action or trade him. He knew all the time he had a NO TRADE deal in his contract, so he pulled a good bluff. I am a Kobe supporter from the day he signed with the Lakers and will be until he retires. If these half a** Laker fans don't like him, they can jump ship any time they want to. JMHO. |
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gemfow
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 06:28 PM PST
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Laker GM


Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 3718
Location: Maryland

  votes: 46
Status: Offline
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KBLakers24: Let me run something by you since you said Kobe hasn't made the Laker players around him better.
Brian Cook:
2006-2007 - 6.4 pts on 45% shooting 40% behind the 3 point line with a whopping 3.3 rebounds
2007-2008 - 5.0 pts on 39% shooting 39% behind the 3 point line with a superior 2.2 rebounds.
Smush Parker:
2006-2007 - 11.1 pts on 44% shooting, 36% behind the 3 point line with 2.8 assists
2007-2008 - 5.9 pts on 34% shooting, 23% behind the 3 point line with 3 assists
Kwame Brown:
2006-2007 - 8.4 pts with 6 boards per game
2007-2008 - 7.4 pts with 5.6 boards per game
2008-2009( DET) - 4.2 pts with 5 boards
Vladimir Radmanovic:
2007-2008 - 8.4 pts with 45% shooting, 40% behind the 3 point line
2008-2009( CHA) 8.3 pts with 40% shooting, 33% behind the 3 point line
Ronny Turiaf:
2006-2007 - 6.6 pts with 3.8 boards
2007-2008 - 5.8 pts with a Dwight Howard esque 4.5 boards ( I meant Dwight Howard per quarter, not game, lol
Mo Evans:
2006-2007 - 8.3 pts with 43% shooting, 36% behind the 3 point line
2008-2009 (ATL) - 7.2 pts with 43% shooting, 39% behind the 3 point line
So with Kobe not holding their unlimited talent back, I'm sure that there stats should have went up right? Nah, you can't polish a turd no matter if it's green or brown.
Me going after stats got me to thinking. I wanted to see how MJ improved his teammates so much.
Ron Harper:
1993-94(LAC) 20.1 pts per game
1994-95(CHI) 6.9 pts per game, best year with Bulls brought in 11.1 pts
Dennis Rodman:
94-95(SAS) 7.1 pts and 16.8 boards
95-96(CHI) 5.5 pts with 14.1 boards
Horace Grant:
93-94(CHI) 15.1 pts and 11.1 boards
94-95(ORL) 12.8 pts and 9.7 boards
Steve Kerr:
97-98(CHI) 7.5 pts on 45% shooting, 43% behind the 3
98-99(SAS) 4.4 pts on 39% shooting, 31% behind the 3
Luc Longley:
97-98(CHI) 11.4 pts and 5.9 boards
98-99(PHO) 8.7 pts and 5.7 boards
Stats with and without MJ
Scottie Pippen:
92-93 - 18.6/7.7/6.3
93-94 - 22/8.7/5.9
94-95 - 21.4/8.1/5.2
95-96 - 19.4/6.5/5.9 |
_________________ "I got the ball with like with eight seconds left to go in the game, I passed it right back like a hot potatoe." - Andrew Bynum after Kobe hit the go ahead shot to win the game against Boston.
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 06:41 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan


Joined: Jun 30, 2007 Age: 18
Posts: 2449
   votes: 22
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Haha. You guys are all like a bunch of girls (lol.) Sports has nothing to do with somebody's personality! Honestly, yeah, Kobe has an ego. He's selfish. He thinks it's all about him... Because it is. Who are we constantly talking about? ...exactly. Seriously guys, when you're as talented as Kobe is, you start to get selfish. He's competitive because every single step he's made in his basketball career is what he will be remembered by. People will use anything and everything against him to tear down his talent and ruin his legacy.. So in order to be the best, he knows he must be perfect and in return, he wants perfection from his team, his coaches, etc. That's where the "trade Bynum" video comes in and his demands to be traded. He was on a crappy team in the prime of his career going nowhere fast. If he hadn't made that demand, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere.
He shouldn't regret anything. Sh.it happens, and everything that has happened throughout this guys career has made him into on hell of a basketball player and a champion. He learned a lot from all the crap he's gone through, and I personally feel that he has been shaped into the perfect leader for our team now. So he isn't a perfect person.. who cares? Please, show me one professional athlete who is. (Tim Tebow doesn't count.) All I know is that he is who he is... And who he is has gotten us 4 championships to celebrate.. Let's all stop caring so much about who he is as a person and appreciate it. |
_________________ "If I can walk, I can play."-Kobe Bryant.
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Cobbler
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 06:50 PM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan


Joined: Oct 18, 2006
Posts: 734
     votes: 14
Status: Offline
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Axle wrote:
I competely disagree with SPQR and I agree with some of the other posts that if Kobe had not acted the way he did, we Laker fans wouldn't have celebrated a championship last year. Kobe had to do what was necessary to put pressure on management to take action or trade him. Working for a large company and being in high management for years, I know that you have to apply pressure if you want anything in life. Kobe was correct to put the pressure or it would have taken another twenty years like it took the Celtics to win another championship. I only agree with SPQR on only one thing and that is that when you take a team apart you can't do it over night. BUT! I will say that what Kobe done was the work of a genious to either take action or trade him. He knew all the time he had a NO TRADE deal in his contract, so he pulled a good bluff. I am a Kobe supporter from the day he signed with the Lakers and will be until he retires. If these half a** Laker fans don't like him, they can jump ship any time they want to. JMHO.
Liking him as a player and a person are two complete different things. You can also effect change and put pressure on the management from within without airing your dirty laundry in public. I too work for a large company and I can only speak for myself. If i have issues with managements decisions I address it with them. If i called a meeting and bashed the management in the meeting... or worse yet, went public outside the company and aired my complaints, I'd be unemployed in a heartbeat.
Kobe could have accomplished the very same behind closed doors. He could have told management that they either make the efforts to get people or trade him. Difference is he doesnt make himself look foolish, divide the fanship, or create the circus atmosphere around the organization. Going puplic had nothing to do with the outcome. |
_________________ "The obvious thing is you understand the season is meant for a growth process,and you hope your playoff position is good enough you can make an effort in the playoffs." Phil Jackson
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 06:56 PM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan


Joined: Jun 30, 2007 Age: 18
Posts: 2449
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| There is no point in having regrets Cobbler. You can't change the past.. And I think things turned out pretty well not only for Kobe, but for the Lakers as a whole. We are the bet franchise, he is the best player, and the fans are ridiculously lucky. |
_________________ "If I can walk, I can play."-Kobe Bryant.
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Cobbler
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Deman
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 07:18 PM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan


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SAMMi24 wrote:
There is no point in having regrets Cobbler. You can't change the past.. And I think things turned out pretty well not only for Kobe, but for the Lakers as a whole. We are the bet franchise, he is the best player, and the fans are ridiculously lucky.
No regrets on my part! I'm glad he's on our team. As I said, I have nothing but respect for him as a basketball player. As a person I think he has some work to do. None of my business really. Just an observation is all. I think had he handled it a little different we would still be right where we are today and their would have been a lot less turmoil along the way.
You certainly cannot change the past. Having regrets, as a person, is the motivating factor in learning from your mistakes and avoiding the same pitfalls in the future. |
_________________ "The obvious thing is you understand the season is meant for a growth process,and you hope your playoff position is good enough you can make an effort in the playoffs." Phil Jackson
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SPQR
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade D
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 07:44 PM PST
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Laker GM



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Axle,
You couldn't be more wrong. Do you honestly think Mitch wouldn't have taken the steal for Pau without Kobes bitching? Come on, get real. He would have done that in minute wether Kobe was even on the team or not, who wouldn't have? Same with the Ariza and Artest deals. Your crediting Kobe for his, lol? If Kobe had had his way Drew would be gone and we would have old man Garnett or old man Kidd instead of a center to build our post Kobe franchise around.
But you see Axle, thats how it is when anyone defends Kobes actions, they have to go into the realm of the unreal to do it. Because there is no real defense for him.
Sammi, If you think someone who has acted as a prick, without conscience or character should not have regrets or apoligise, I would be a bit frightened to marry to marry you!! lol. You sound a little scary to me if that is your view of that type of behavior. I mean to take that line of thinking along, someone could rob you and not have regrets, sh*t happens. Someone could steal your car and not feel regrets, sh*t happens. Someone could do worse to you and not feel regrets, sh*t happens. does that make that person ok with you? Interesting that you condone that type of abhorrant behavior exhibited by Kobe by saying "sh*t happens."
Mamba1024,
The sad part is, if Kobe had been a normal person of character, a stand up guy, he could have really gone down in history as one of the greatest and beloved athletes in history. He could have literally had it all, in every way. He would have been an American Icon.
But because of his lack of conscience and character he will go down as a great player and horrid person and teamate. He deserves both reputations and worked equally hard to achieve each.
I don't like saying these things about Bryant. He is my second favorite all time Laker, but I am not so infatuated with his on the court activities, as some are, that I have wrapped his jock over my eyes when it comes to his off court activities and decisions. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
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SPQR
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade D
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 07:50 PM PST
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Laker GM



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Quote:
You certainly cannot change the past. Having regrets, as a person, is the motivating factor in learning from your mistakes and avoiding the same pitfalls in the future.
Cobbler,
Your quote is spot on the nose! My point exactly. No one can change the past. We can only have regrets on the bad we did and strive to never do it again. As Kobe has so clearly put it now, he has not changed and regets none of the harm he did. He just regrets having people know he did it. Kobe, unlike normal people, can't see what he did and is incapable of learning or regret.
It would have been nice to see Kobe had learned, that he has developed a bit of character after all the years and mistakes, but it won't ever happen. After all Kobe is never to blame, it is all the people who screw him that are to blame, as Kobe so well understands. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
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urkle9
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade D
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 08:45 PM PST
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Laker GM

Joined: Oct 06, 2008
Posts: 3651

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| WOW... i never had any Idea Horace's Grants numbers were that good... Thats the least that Bynum should be giving us this season. I really am hard on Bynum, because I've seen Flashes when he is running circles around Duncan, then he is hugging Dwight Howard like a Boxer. |
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gemfow
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade D
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 09:02 PM PST
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Laker GM


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We don't have any idea what the context was or anything, so let's be a little fair before saying this, that and the other about him. I think generally most of us agree that the way he went about doing it was wrong, but generally most of us agree that we're glad that he did do something.
How can you guys look so deeply into this one quote?
Leading up to his 14th Lakers season, the Newport Coast resident sat down for an exclusive interview with the Register to explain that he has been more repaired than reformed.
"Circumstances," Bryant said. "I really haven't changed much." |
_________________ "I got the ball with like with eight seconds left to go in the game, I passed it right back like a hot potatoe." - Andrew Bynum after Kobe hit the go ahead shot to win the game against Boston.
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Cobbler
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Tra
Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 09:09 PM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan


Joined: Oct 18, 2006
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gemfow wrote:
We don't have any idea what the context was or anything, so let's be a little fair before saying this, that and the other about him. I think generally most of us agree that the way he went about doing it was wrong, but generally most of us agree that we're glad that he did do something.
How can you guys look so deeply into this one quote?
Leading up to his 14th Lakers season, the Newport Coast resident sat down for an exclusive interview with the Register to explain that he has been more repaired than reformed.
"Circumstances," Bryant said. "I really haven't changed much."
You have a point. He very well could regret the underlying aspesct of those actions as well. None of us really know the man. We see what that media portrays for the most part. He would have been better off saying I regret going public and the way I handled it that caused so much grief for my team and teamates.
It's a tough thing to admit your wrong and even more so for extreme competitors. I have argued with the wife and been relentless just to win only to look back and say... was the win really worth the cost of hurting her? The answer has rarely if ever been yes.
I still believe the coddling and pampering these guys get from grade school thru thier pro careers does them and everyone else a disservice. |
_________________ "The obvious thing is you understand the season is meant for a growth process,and you hope your playoff position is good enough you can make an effort in the playoffs." Phil Jackson
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 03:26 AM PST
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Die-Hard Laker Fan


Joined: Jun 30, 2007 Age: 18
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Cobbler,
But I feel like his actions have taught him a thing or two. He shouldn't regret it because he didn't make any major mistakes.. he didn't kill anybody. He learned from what he did.
SPQR,
I don't see regrets as moving forward. I see moving forward as saying "well, this wasn't great, let's move on. I won't do that again." Of course killing somebody or stealing a car is not the same as being "childish" for wanting a trade.... those dont even compare.... |
_________________ "If I can walk, I can play."-Kobe Bryant.
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Kobe420
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 04:02 AM PST
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Serious Laker Fan

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If I'm considered a hollow person for wanting to be traded to a winning team, then so be it. Kobe was (and still is) the best player in the NBA at the time of resigning. He was promised to be surrounded with talent that would compete in the playoffs and hopefully into the NBA Finals. Instead, he got Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Radman, Sasha, etc. Yes, the Lakers stood by him during the Colorado incident, he won three championships there already, etc. But when you are the best player in the world and you have to carry the ENTIRE load to a first round playoff exit for two years straight (and even a missed playoff), that kind of ruins what you accomplished with the original three championships.
Anybody in his shoes, whether publicly or privately, would have asked for a trade. |
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cuckooroller
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 05:48 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer



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| Being the entirely shallow and superficial person that I am, I am glad he did it! I will leave to others to eviscerate about what this might mean as far as Kobe Bryant's character. I could care less. All I know is that before we had a crap team, and now we don't. I don't feel like looking a gift-Kobe in the mouth! |
_________________ Steve
"Sasha Vujacic. The All-Time YWCA Scoring Leader".
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SPQR
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 08:47 AM PST
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Laker GM



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Kobe420,
Was not the promise to Kobe kept? Like I said, reality does have something to do with the acquisition of good players, does it not? Once again, could Mitch Kupchak wiggle his nose like Samantha Stevens and make good players appear here overnight or even in a year? It did not take all that long to surround Kobe with good players and it certainly took place within an expected, REALISTIC time frame. It may have not taken place in Kobe's UNREALISTIC, egomaniacal time frame, but for any normal person rebuilding over three years was certainly respectable and normal. Once again though, I am sure Kobe thought he was being screwed over and made his sentiments clear. There have been plenty of players who were in Kobes shoes who did not ask for a trade, in direct contravention of your ascertion. A better player than Kobe in fact-Michael Jordan. He had NO rings and was with the Bulls for seven long years before he had the players around him to win the title and he never demanded a trade, did he? There were others too. Your arguments do not hold water under scrutiny. At all.
Quote:
Being the entirely shallow and superficial person that I am, I am glad he did it! I will leave to others to eviscerate about what this might mean as far as Kobe Bryant's character. I could care less. All I know is that before we had a crap team, and now we don't. I don't feel like looking a gift-Kobe in the mouth!
Steve, not sure what to say to that interesting comment. Your answer pretty much says it all, nonsensical as it is. I don't look a gift Kobe in the mouth either. I just wish he had been a nice guy. His career -and the Lakers fortunes- would have been EXACTLY THE SAME only without the selfish drama and crap he put every one through. Well, wait, not exactly. My bad. Phil never would have been driven off by Kobe like he was.
Like I said Sammi, if you absolve someone of destructive, devisive, borish, childish, selfish behavior over ten years with "sh*t happens," you scare me a little, lol. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
Last edited by SPQR on Oct 26, 2009 - 10:47 AM PST; edited 2 times in total
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cuckooroller
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 08:54 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer



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Randy,
It is just that my feelings about Kobe Bryant's character are totally irrelevant, and have no power to change how Bryant feels about himself, or comports himself. Bryant is simply what he is. Probably, there is something to the old adage "nice guys finish last"! Had he been such a nice guy, unassuming, and going with the flow, and with no competitive drive to win, then he probably would have never opened up his yap and pressured the Laker FO to get off the dime. So, I can silently not like his arrogance, but as a fan, when all is said and done, the bottom line is that he is a winner and wants to win regardless of his being a jerk. |
_________________ Steve
"Sasha Vujacic. The All-Time YWCA Scoring Leader".
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SPQR
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 08:58 AM PST
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Laker GM



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Steve,
What you don't understand is that Kobe had nothing to do with us getting Pau and the others. Like I said, Mitch, or any GM would have been a fool not to make those moves. Why do you and others attribute Kobe's pouting to us getting these players? I am sorry Steve, you know I respect you a lot (as well as so many others here who I respect) but don't go trying to make all the crap he pulled as somehow benifiting the Lakers when it did nothing but cause problems. Kobe's ranting and raving DID NOTHING TO HELP. You couldn't be more wrong and as much as I love you I am not going to let you or anyone rewrite history to absolve him in some way.
There is no defense of Kobe and I will shoot down any arguement that trys to...and do it very easily. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
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cuckooroller
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 09:04 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer



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| I fail to see that I am absolving Bryant for his bad character. However, you must admit that for several years preceding the incident that the Laker FO seemed (and it may just be my impression) to have taken a rather laid-back attitude as far as really attempting to reconstruct the team and make it truly competitive. Personally, though it is certainly true what you say about the deals done after and their obvious advantageousness (i.e., that even an idiot GM would have signed off on them), I still happen to think that Bryant's tirade lent a certain urgency to what seemed to many people to be a complacent Laker FO! |
_________________ Steve
"Sasha Vujacic. The All-Time YWCA Scoring Leader".
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SPQR
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 09:10 AM PST
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Laker GM



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Steve,
You can say they were lackadasical, or you could say they were not going rush into dumb moves in order to placate Kobe.
Had GM Kobe had his way, we would have traded Drew for Jason Kidd. Would you have liked that move? In fact, Mitch caved in to the point where he offered Drew for Garnett. Do you wish that trade had come about? I don't. Garnett will be gone in couple more years. Drew will be around to help us for a decade yet. Subsequant events certainly seem to indicate that it was a good thing the front office did not rush to judgement and make the moves Kobe so badly wanted, do they not?
Mabye thats why it is better for Mitch to be the GM and Kobe to be the player, don't you think? Any more points to make? |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
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cuckooroller
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 09:16 AM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer



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| Obviously, we still think that it would not have been a good idea to deal Bynum! However, for all his promise, he is still an promise unfulfilled. It should be remembered also that there were a number of questionable deals done before that period. I give you Kwame Brown, and he was not the only bad judgment call made by a not very swift Laker FO of that period. Perhaps, it was all due to a certain period of apprenticeship necessary for Kupchak. A lot of people questioned his judgment, and it is only recently that he is seen as having rehabilitated himself. Perhaps all of the timing in coincidental, and I do concede you that point, but, perhaps not all of it is coincidental. |
_________________ Steve
"Sasha Vujacic. The All-Time YWCA Scoring Leader".
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SPQR
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 09:22 AM PST
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Laker GM



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Steve,
Please, no equivocating. I will ask you again, do you wish we had traded Drew for Kidd or Garnett as Kobe wanted? The question is simple and straight forward. Do you feel GM Kobe or GM Mitch was correct in the end?
Yes, Mitch made some sketchy deals. But do you not think in the end, considering that after the 3peat team was done, that we rebuilt back into a championship contender and winner in a very short amount of time? Just how fast did you realistically expect to win a title again after the 3peat teams? So then, what is the problem you see or are complaining about? Expound please. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
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dmaxkb
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 09:33 AM PST
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Casual Laker Fan

Joined: Oct 03, 2008
Posts: 60
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| let me throw a statement... "who is perfect among us thow the first stone..." |
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SPQR
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 09:38 AM PST
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Laker GM



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dmaxkb,
Let me throw in another one for you: "he who acts like a selfish child for ten years and has not regrets shows himself to be what he is."
Steve,
No response yet? I assume your silence to my questions means you concede to my points and case closed then, right? We both know the answers to my queries, right?
Defending Kobe on this issue is not a place you want to go, Steve. And the more you try to go there you will find it a deep, dark, cold place. You will end up looking bad. The facts will make that so. I will just use them as I should. As you're finding out. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
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lakerbloke
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 11:03 AM PST
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Laker GM



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SPQR wrote:
dmaxkb,
Let me throw in another one for you: "he who acts like a selfish child for ten years and has not regrets shows himself to be what he is."
Steve,
No response yet? I assume your silence to my questions means you concede to my points and case closed then, right? We both know the answers to my queries, right?
Defending Kobe on this issue is not a place you want to go, Steve. And the more you try to go there you will find it a deep, dark, cold place. You will end up looking bad. The facts will make that so. I will just use them as I should. As you're finding out.
LOL, you are a persistent man Randy. Quite honestly, my opinion of this whole thing is Kobe will be Kobe, a spoilt brat who has an amazing talent to play ball.
Yes things may be rosy right now for the Lakers, but who knows what could have possibly happened if we actually did end up trading Bynum for Garnett? Bynum may never have gotten hurt and his path to greatness may have taken a shorter ride. Garnett could have helped the Lakers win the championship in 07/08.
It would have been the right thing for Bryant to regret the whole incident and not just the exposure of it, but that is who he is. He is arrogant enough to say that he didn't regret it, but I could quite honestly give a flying f**k, all that matters to me is that he did his job on the court. |
_________________ "you know what would look good on you?"
"Me..." --- Lakerbloke '09
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SPQR
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 11:21 AM PST
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Laker GM



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Lakerbloke,
Lol, yes I am persistant. I debate hard and I pick my spots. I don't mess around in debate. I usually do well in debate because I do have a tendency to see things as they are, not how I want them to be, unemotioinally, and usually have the facts supporting me. If I don't then I know I would not be on the correct side of an issue. It is a formula than makes scoring points in debate pretty easy. Lots of people tend to ignore facts in debate and just go on emotion, what they want to believe about a person, team or issue. Not a smart thing to do in debate. If someone uses this method in debating me, they will not like the results. Not blowing my horn, just being honest about it. I don't get any enjoyment in making any ones position, or them, look bad. By the same token, I am also not responsible for errors they make in debate or faulty logic they use. I will just point it out as I am required to do in debate. Their thinking and their positions are solely their responsibilty to vett with the facts and logic before they post them.
I did not ask Steve to join this debate. He wanted in. Now he is boxed in by the facts and can't respond to my questions because he knows his answer would support me and go against his own arguement. That is what happens sometimes when you decide to jump in on the wrong side of an issue.
Had we traded Drew for Garnett would we have won a title? Probably. Would he have gotten hurt and precipitated the Pau deal? Probably not. We did get Pau and we still won a title. We now have a center that should help us for ten years, (knock on the injury wood). We also have Pau who is considerably younger than Garnett. So to me it is a no brainer that not getting Garnett was a good thing for us in the longer run. Kobe's other brilliant, GM dream, Jason Kidd, I don't even think I have to dignify with a response.
I so totally agree with your last point that Kobe, if he was a normal person of conscience and character, he would have and should have apologized for some of the egregious things he has done. It would have been nice and those simple words would have brought good closure to how he acted at those moments. People are forgiving, if someone is remorseful for things they did wrong. Unfortunatly he has shown once again he is neither. I don't like saying that about him, he is my second all time favorite Laker, but his own actions and lack of self recrimination leave me no choice. Despite my like for him, I always comment unemotionally on what transpires with him or anyone else.
I also agree with you that I only care what Kobe does on the court. I don't care if he is a nice guy or an a** off it. The only time I do care is when his actions threaten the Lakers as a team, as his did.
I will also glady and honestly say I am delighted that he is still here. I am glad that Mitch and management were able to weather the Kobe "storm" and keep him, Drew and all the players around to launch what should be another Laker dynasty so quickly on the heels of the 3peat team. But one must always remember this stark, unassailable fact: this great team is here right now, DESPITE Kobe, not because of him. And if people who are mesmorized by him on the court don't like that fact, too bad. It is no less a fact. So is the fact that we will have Drew to keep us going after Kobe is gone. And those are just the hard, cold facts of the matter. There are no others. And nobody can make a case otherwise, not even the estimable Steve. I am not going to let him or anyone else now somehow try to contravene the facts and rewrite some, new, warped Laker history to give Kobe the credit for having the team we now have. If baby, brat Kobe had his way, we would not have this team we all love to watch so much and we expect and get such great things from.
This particular issue is very easy for me to debate. All the facts support me. No genius on my part. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
Last edited by SPQR on Oct 26, 2009 - 01:37 PM PST; edited 1 time in total
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cuckooroller
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 12:57 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer



Joined: Mar 27, 2008 Age: 59
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SPQR wrote:
Steve,
Please, no equivocating. I will ask you again, do you wish we had traded Drew for Kidd or Garnett as Kobe wanted? The question is simple and straight forward. Do you feel GM Kobe or GM Mitch was correct in the end?
Yes, Mitch made some sketchy deals. But do you not think in the end, considering that after the 3peat team was done, that we rebuilt back into a championship contender and winner in a very short amount of time? Just how fast did you realistically expect to win a title again after the 3peat teams? So then, what is the problem you see or are complaining about? Expound please.
Randy,
I am not given to equivocating as you should know. The answer is that I did not want Bynum to be traded at the time as I also indicated, with no equivocation above. Therefore, I sided with Kupchak, and did so at that time. I honestly do not understand why you are so het up about this. Neither of us can know just exactly what weight any of the goings on back then had in the flow of how things happened back then. I was not intimating that I thought that everything that transpired since Bryant's tirade was the prime mover for all subsequent events and therefore all credit given to Bryant! It is not above the realm of possibility, however, that the fear of losing a disgruntled Bryant may not have added impulse to what might have seemed to be a rather rudderless Front Office strategy whereby efforts to find suitable alternatives for bettering the team in the short term were more assiduously pursued.
As my initial posting indicated, and I was purposely keeping it superficial, that since I can not influence Bryant's character, then I superficially observed that since the tirade things have gotten better with the team. I also indicated that it might be sheer coincidence, Kupchak getting better on the job, or simply serendipitous trade options that presented themselves fortuitously after the tirade.
Apparently what you are requiring of me is some sort of blanket capitulation to your interpretation. Personally, having stated in much more depth than I really would care to about this point, I still fail to see the importance of this.
If you are asking me if I like Bryant's character, then no, I do not! However, I care much more about the Lakers being a winning team than trying to hypothesize how beautiful it would be to have a perfect team, with perfect players, and everything in a perfect world so that nobody would have any problems ever about exulting for our team's success. It does not detract from my pleasure when our team wins a Championship, to know that Kobe Bryant, the jerk, wins also!
By the way, perhaps my fault that I did not realize that I was getting into some sort of heated debate. This sort of thing is not usually the sort of fight that I pick for investing time in a true dialectical battle. We have debated before, once as I recall, and I think both of us showed their mettle and supported their points well, but then in that case the question was much more deserving of spending time and energy, something that in this case I fail to see the importance of doing given the scarse importance of the question at hand. I am sure that we will have occasion to debate again on something, however, that has importance to both of us, and sincerely, the present does not have the importance to me, that it so obviously has to you.
P.S. You have to give people time to respond. I do not usually respond well when I find someone essentially debating himself, and rendering the opinions of others absolutely superfluous. I have no way of knowing what was in the minds of the people in the Laker FO at that time, how much weight was given to the incident, how much Kupchak was stimulated, perhaps not at all, but I do not know that. Therefore, I consider this to be a question scarse of true facts, and long on subjective impressions that each one of us are equally entitled to have. For us to behave as if we are looking at a set number of factual and confirmed points of unassailable truth with no subjectivity involved would be presumptuous of us. |
_________________ Steve
"Sasha Vujacic. The All-Time YWCA Scoring Leader".
Last edited by cuckooroller on Oct 26, 2009 - 01:44 PM PST; edited 1 time in total
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SPQR
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 01:34 PM PST
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Laker GM



Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Pennsylvania
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Quote:
I fail to see that I am absolving Bryant for his bad character. However, you must admit that for several years preceding the incident that the Laker FO seemed (and it may just be my impression) to have taken a rather laid-back attitude as far as really attempting to reconstruct the team and make it truly competitive. Personally, though it is certainly true what you say about the deals done after and their obvious advantageousness (i.e., that even an idiot GM would have signed off on them), I still happen to think that Bryant's tirade lent a certain urgency to what seemed to many people to be a complacent Laker FO!
Steve,
Please don't take our debate in some strange direction. My questions was simply in response to your ascertion or belief that Kobe somehow made this team possible by his b*tch. That he facilitated the moves somehow. It is what you said, right? That is what your quote that I have copied above seems to indicate. If I am reading what you are saying in error, please tell me.
I don't see an scintilla of evidence that his bitching did anything but come to hairs breath of making our present team not a reality. I simply proved that ascertion that Kobe somehow helped build this team wrong by bringing up the facts of what Kobe GM wanted and what transpired. Thankfully, Kobe GM did not get what he wanted. If he had, we would not have this team that has won a championship and is poised to win more. There is nothing more to it.
If you see this some other way than I do, I will be more than happy to hear you out. If not, then we are in agreement and are on the same side of the issue. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
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cuckooroller
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 01:49 PM PST
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Lakers Topbuzz Hall of Famer



Joined: Mar 27, 2008 Age: 59
Posts: 7792
Location: Italy

   votes: 76
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SPQR wrote:
Quote:
I fail to see that I am absolving Bryant for his bad character. However, you must admit that for several years preceding the incident that the Laker FO seemed (and it may just be my impression) to have taken a rather laid-back attitude as far as really attempting to reconstruct the team and make it truly competitive. Personally, though it is certainly true what you say about the deals done after and their obvious advantageousness (i.e., that even an idiot GM would have signed off on them), I still happen to think that Bryant's tirade lent a certain urgency to what seemed to many people to be a complacent Laker FO!
Steve,
Please don't take our debate in some strange direction. My questions was simply in response to your ascertion or belief that Kobe somehow made this team possible by his b*tch. That he facilitated the moves somehow. It is what you said, right? That is what your quote that I have copied above seems to indicate. If I am reading what you are saying in error, please tell me.
I don't see an scintilla of evidence that his bitching did anything but come to hairs breath of making our present team not a reality. I simply proved that ascertion that Kobe somehow helped build this team wrong by bringing up the facts of what Kobe GM wanted and what transpired. Thankfully, Kobe GM did not get what he wanted. If he had, we would not have this team that has won a championship and is poised to win more. There is nothing more to it.
If you see this some other way than I do, I will be more than happy to hear you out. If not, then we are in agreement and are on the same side of the issue.
No, that is exactly what I am saying. However, this is solely my personal interpretation. I can not know that Bryant's tirade, was absolutely ignored by one and all, and that it was in no manner a factor in stimulating more focus at that time. This is not to say that I know it for a fact, however, neither can you say that you have the inside information into the mindset of all involved at that time, and unequivocally say that it was such a non-factor, that it basically did not register. In this consists the subjectivity of this matter. I do not know. If you know these people personally and they conferred with you at that time, then yes, you win this debatable debate!
Please, please, do not accord yourself my agreement. I never presume to think for others. Having said this, however, I find the subject of our contention should be worthy of saving for things that are of true importance. When a supposed debate proves to be simply a sounding board for browbeating on the part of someone convinced that all interpretations of a question not his, are stupid, are not valid, or whatever, then it is no longer a debate. Because I esteem you as a valid poster and rational person, I choose to no longer pursue this thread. I do not wish to have bad blood between us for such a stupid question. Debate we will in future I am sure, but the next time hopefully with the respect that should be accorded to the opinions of others even if not shared. I do not generally attempt to denigrate others opinions in an attempt to win a so-called debate. I respond not well at all when it is clear that whatever I think is absolutely superfluous to someone climbing up on a soapbox and hearing only one voice. |
_________________ Steve
"Sasha Vujacic. The All-Time YWCA Scoring Leader".
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gemfow
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 02:09 PM PST
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Laker GM


Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 3718
Location: Maryland

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SPQR:
I agree with you that any GM would have been a fool not to take that deal for Gasol and that's why I mentioned in past posts that I can't jump on the Mitch is a genius bandwagon like others have done. I would say that the trevor ariza deal was a good one and so was the Vlad for brown and morrison. Gasol was a no-brainer.
However the thing I can't agree with is that it seems like you are combining two different incidents. The one thing of him requesting a trade that went public, which he was suppose to have been fined because the NBA has a rule against that. The other incident is the video of him trashing Bynum, which to me was classless. So, maybe he truly does just regret how things went public with the Lakers organization, but what does that have tio do with the Bynum video? |
_________________ "I got the ball with like with eight seconds left to go in the game, I passed it right back like a hot potatoe." - Andrew Bynum after Kobe hit the go ahead shot to win the game against Boston.
Last edited by gemfow on Oct 26, 2009 - 03:12 PM PST; edited 1 time in total
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maraud
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Post subject: Re: RE: Kobe Regrets Public 2007 Trade Demand
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 02:11 PM PST
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Laker GM


Joined: Jul 13, 2007
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SPQR wrote:
Kobe's comment that the only regrets he made things public has still shows that as great as he is as a player, he is just as hollow as a person.
That period in time and Kobe's childish, selfish behavior was probably the nadir of so many rotten things he had done in the last decade.
Here he was, a player with three rings already, a dynasty had just broken up and he wants to be a championship contender immediatly. He did not have the intellegence, common sense or selflessness to understand the reality that it does take a few years to assemble a championship team in any sport after one breaks up, that you can't just wiggle your nose like Samantha Stevens on bewitched and make it so.
He somehow forgot that Shaq, a player with NO rings, waited patiently for Kobe to develop over the years to the point where they could win a title. He forgot that Shaq did not demand to trade him like Kobe did Andrew Bynum for a more experienced player who could have helped Shaq get him that elusive ring he had not won yet. Kobe showed how classless he was and how short a memory he has and how it was all about Kobe. Instead Kobe lets some fans tape him dissing a teenage kid like Drew, who probably looked up to him knowing full well it would hit the media. What a slimeball move. Kobe (already a three time champion) somehow forgot to extend to Drew the courtesy of patience that Shaq gave him.
Then when the Lakers didnt rush precipitously to try build a team (and lose their future by trading Drew) he demanded out. He did not care about the fans in LA that worshipped his every move nor about a team, owner and organization that backed him to the hilt during his darkest hour. The team that flew his golden a** on a chartered jet at their expense while Kobe had to defend himself against rape charges in Colorado. The team that also decided to take him over Shaq, a player he could not stand playing with anymore. All this was so easily forgotten because in the Great Man's estimation the team did not move fast enough to suit his precious needs to get him that post Shaq ring on his time table. What a disgrace. What a selfish, sad person he must be.
Kobe says in the article he "hasn't changed much." I believe it after reading his comment. I had hoped that maybe even Kobe had finally learned something by the age of 31. His new comments about his puerile actions during this period show he is incapable of understanding anything but having everyone do what he deems correct. It also shows that if for some reason things collapsed here in LA, he would forget his fans, his team and all his success here in a minute, become Mr. Petulant again and high tail it out of here as fast as he can.
Kobe says he hasn't changed much. He is right.
What a great player, what a dedicated, driven athlete, what a slimy, lousy person.
As much as I admire him on the court, I also pity him just as much off it. It must be a very lonely, warped, twisted, paranoid world inside that man's head.
SPQR,
A lot of what you have said is true, but I feel that what you did not say has equal importance, mainly that the front office really dropped the ball when it traded Shaq for very little. Their haste because Jerry Buss wanted him gone now forsed them to take players that were not a value equal to what they gave up. The FO also made some bad trades and brought in disasters such as Smush, Cook and Kwami Brown. There was no real rebuilding process only a series of moves with little rhyme or reason. In a way I do not blame Kobe for his outburst, although I do feel that it should have been made in private.
In defence of Kobe, I can only say that each player only has 10 to 15 years to make his mark before father time moves you aside for the next generation of superstars. Each year that the Lakers floundered in mediocrity was another year that was lost in the quest for a ring and Kobe knew it and that was motivation for his cry in the wilderness. His reasoning was sound but his approach was flawed. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 02:16 PM PST
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Serious Laker Fan


Joined: Jan 26, 2009
Posts: 464

   votes: 4
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| just watch guys. players will start to do this. look at stephen jackson. he's acting just as bad as kobe saying that since baron and harrington left he feels the warriors do not want to contend. chris paul knows that the hornets are worried more about money rather than getting players and thats how it started with kobe too. im not gonna lie i didnt have faith in bynum either. it was hard. how can i trust a 19 yr old to develope so quick especially when we wanted to win now. i was impatient as well and i agreed with kobe wanting to trade him but the one thing i do agree with is that he shouldnt have made it known on camera but hey i think kobe was just in desperation for some help and hearing names lk KG, artest, jermaine o'neal, etc going by just becuz we didnt wanna lose bynum made him mad at the time but you can tell kobe appreciates his game now. kobe has said that with bynum we're capable of doing anything. he was even upset when bynum got injured for the second time so obviously things have changed. to me some of you guys are lk the critics you guys are holding on to what kobe has said in the past. leave it alone its in the past. i really dont know why they wrote this article and asked him the question again. that was 2 years ago. whatever. kobe is my dude and like it or not but you take kobe off this team and we aint ****! |
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gemfow
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 02:33 PM PST
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Laker GM


Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 3718
Location: Maryland

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Maraud: That Shaq trade didn't give the Lakers much to work with because of his contract and age. Teams would have wanted him, but they weren't going to gut their teams for a lazy, out of shape seven footer, no matter how dominant he was.
renteria24: I agree with you and I've said it in many posts that the media won't let things die. However in the defense of some of the posters on here, they are working off the comments of him saing he regrets that the trade demand went public and that he said he hasn't changed much. |
_________________ "I got the ball with like with eight seconds left to go in the game, I passed it right back like a hot potatoe." - Andrew Bynum after Kobe hit the go ahead shot to win the game against Boston.
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OCLakerfan8
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 02:34 PM PST
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Big-Time Laker Fan


Joined: Jun 16, 2006
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It is correct that there is no evidence that supports Kobe's B*tching got us Pau and ultimately the championship... but there is also no evidence that makes us believe that the FO was working to get Pau or some other top player regardless of Kobe's raving rants... on the contrary the FO, under Mitch Kupchack, up until the point to when Kobe demanded the trade had a track record of not doing anything but putting together bad teams: Smush, trading Caron for Kwame, Luke as a starting Small Forward??? Brain Cook?
What evidice is there that supports the fact that they were putting together a team for the present? There really isn't any. Bynum was drafted as a project Big man and the Organization seemed willing to wait for him develop and during those years that was the biggest moves the organization did. Again that's a pretty bad track record... and since we don't have physical evidence to support either side of the argument the track record its self does paint a very convincing bad picture of the FO being complacent.
Now Kobe being childish still??? Maybe he is, Maybe he isn't. I think him demanding his trade became a big deal and in our faces because we're in LA, one of the biggest media hubs of the world, the reporters had a field day with this and decided to solitify Kobe's position as the NBA's Villain.
Iverson's trade demands, Jason Kidd's, Stephon Marbuary refusing to play for the Knicks, wasn't anywhere near the magnitude of Kobe's because the LA press didn't care about those players and the local press for the teams' respective cities (Except New York) didn't have the power LA does... what about Dwayne Wade and LeBron James? they are making it pretty public that they want to win and not play for bad teams.
I personally don't think its childish of him at all... it doesn't make him an arrogant prick. Professional athletes should want to win. The NBA is a business... some people maybe happy to just be another guy collecting paychecks but Kobe isn't. He wants to succeed in his industry and it seemed that the Lakers Organization just wanted to save money and use Kobe's star power to draw in the crowd and sell tickets.
Sure Kobe probably didn't know the whole story about what the front office does, but its not his job to. His job is to play and to help his team win. If I was already doing everything I could but my team was still losing... and I was not being given any help, yeah, I'd be pretty pissed too and want out. Put it this way, if someone has been working for a company for 10 years and the comany was in the wrong direction, that person has every right to jump ship, the NBA players are no different, the only reason NBA players are different is their hefty paychecks. |
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maraud
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 02:50 PM PST
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Laker GM


Joined: Jul 13, 2007
Posts: 2834
Location: Murrietapatch, CA
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gemfow wrote:
Maraud: That Shaq trade didn't give the Lakers much to work with because of his contract and age. Teams would have wanted him, but they weren't going to gut their teams for a lazy, out of shape seven footer, no matter how dominant he was.
renteria24: I agree with you and I've said it in many posts that the media won't let things die. However in the defense of some of the posters on here, they are working off the comments of him saing he regrets that the trade demand went public and that he said he hasn't changed much.
Gem,
I seem to remember Mark Cuban offering Dirk and others for Shaq. It was Dr. Buss fire sale that made Mitch's job impossible. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 02:55 PM PST
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Serious Laker Fan


Joined: Jan 26, 2009
Posts: 464

   votes: 4
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maraud wrote:
gemfow wrote:
Maraud: That Shaq trade didn't give the Lakers much to work with because of his contract and age. Teams would have wanted him, but they weren't going to gut their teams for a lazy, out of shape seven footer, no matter how dominant he was.
renteria24: I agree with you and I've said it in many posts that the media won't let things die. However in the defense of some of the posters on here, they are working off the comments of him saing he regrets that the trade demand went public and that he said he hasn't changed much.
Gem,
I seem to remember Mark Cuban offering Dirk and others for Shaq. It was Dr. Buss fire sale that made Mitch's job impossible.
i seem to remember this deal too. i think it was a good package as well. if i remember i think the mavs were offering terry, dirk, and couple of other role players. i would have jumped on it |
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SPQR
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 02:56 PM PST
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Laker GM



Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Pennsylvania
  votes: 109
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Steve, OClaker,
I can address both you in this one post. These are the facts: Kobe the GM wanted to trade Drew for Kidd or Garnett. Mitch resisted the trade for Drew but caved in to Kobe for the Garnett deal. Fortunately Mchale did not bite. So instead of having an old Garnett, we now have Drew and Pau. I will gladly take that. Now lets look at the subsequant events. After Drew started playing good, Kobe cooled off. Remember his remark, "this is guy you can win a title with"? Then Drew got hurt. Pau was offered to us in miracle trade. Do either of you think Mitch would not have pulled the deal with our without Kobe on the team? Of course he would have. We trading unathletic nothing Brian Cook for big, athletic, fast Trevor Ariza, the exact kind of play Phil loves. Once again, how did Kobe figure into this? Finally, after we had trouble with the Trevor negociation, Mitch turns to Artest. Just another deal any competant GM would have made. Kobe was not bitching at this point. He had nothing to do with it. So you guys are making things up out of whole cloth and saying Kobe had something to do with this stuff when the facts show the only two deals Kobe wanted were not made, and thank god they weren't. It is not up to me to prove a negative. It is up to you guys to prove Kobe had something to do with these deals that there is no evidence to support.
So tell me, Steve, in light of the facts as they were, where exactly does your Kobe as GM theory fit in? I just took the time to lay out the whole scenario as it happened to support my position. Lets see you answer with some facts of your own to support yours. I would love to hear it. Give me a little evidence like I just did for you. It's not so hard, is it? Convince me! I know you can. I am open minded to evidence, Steve. Just lay it on me.
So, if you can't do so, Steve, and we are not in agreement, while it remains your opinion, it is just as supported by fact as the existance of Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, and does not make it so. I have shown just that.
I apolgise for implying that I am thinking for you. Actually, with the position you are taking, saying Santa Claus is real-"just because it is my opinion" regardless of facts, it does not seem you are thinking all that much at all on this issue...unless you show me otherwise. Like I said, I am open to evidence and I would love to see it.
OC,
Of course Kobes actions over his ten years make him an arrogant prick. If you can't see it then just say the world is flat, because that is what you are doing. Also, to make comparisons with other athletes is wrong. First off, every one of them had different circumstances. Kobe had three rings, he was given the largesse of time by Shaq when he had NO rings, something baby Kobe would not extend to Drew. Also, just because someone else is pr*ck does not excuse Kobe from following suit.
When you say that, you are saying, "hey, nothing wrong with Ida Amin from commiting mass murder because Hitler and Stalin did it before him." It has no logic to it. It is not a valid excuse. A mass murderer is a mass murderer and a pr*ck is a pr*ck. No matter how many others there may be before him. Period.
And of coures when dealing with Kobe we can bring up endless episode after episode of him being a prick. Not just the issues on this thread. The evidence is so overwhelming its not even debatable by an honest observer. Period.
Maraud,
As I said before, I agree that Mitch made bad deals. But that has no bearing on the issue I am disscussing with Steve. It is a different matter entirely. I agree that a player has limited time. But Kobe had three rings already and his expectations of rebuilding were so out of whack, so unrealistic it was pathetic. The proof of what eventually happened shows how wrong and goofy he was in what he expected. All he had to do was just show a bit of patience and he would have gotten everything he wanted, just as he did, but without all the crying, b*tching and selfishness that he displayed for all to see. Too bad for him that he did. It is part of his legacy now and all his worshippers can't change that or distort the truth of it. |
_________________ "It was a staggering revelation. And my mind reeled at the thought of it." Carl Jacobi-'Revelations In Black'
Last edited by SPQR on Oct 26, 2009 - 03:46 PM PST; edited 1 time in total
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lakeshowsd
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 26, 2009 - 03:26 PM PST
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Laker GM



Joined: Dec 20, 2008 Age: 28
Posts: 4341
Location: North Bend, OR
   votes: 52
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I've gotta agree with SPQR here. The facts simply support his arguement. Mitch gets all the credit for bringing in Gasol and keeping Bynum. Kobe wanted to trade Bynum for Jason Kidd, and we all know how that worked out. Let's be happy we have a competent GM in Mitch Kupchak who had the patience to build on young talent, and pull the trigger on truly beneficial trades to acquire Ariza and Gasol. So far, Kobe's ideas as a GM have shown that he is like Michael Jordan in more ways than just his basketball skills.
I just don't see that Kobe's b*tching did anything to help the team at all. Remember, the team was already at the top of the west when they acquired Gasol. Why, you ask? Andrew Bynum. Mitch's decision to keep the kid proved brilliant as Kobe, Bynum, and Odom led the team to a furious start in 2008, surprising so many of us after several years of mediocrity. Kobe didn't have any reason to b*tch at that point in time. He was already beginning to regret his words. Had Mitch actually listened to Kobe's b*tching, Bynum might not be a Laker today. |
_________________ "Andrew Bynum: The next Great Center."
Last edited by lakeshowsd on Oct 26, 2009 - 03:45 PM PST; edited 3 times in total
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