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    J-CoolOffline
    Post subject: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for Lakers  PostPosted: May 11, 2008 - 11:28 PM PST
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    Quote:
    First, the back spasms.

    Then, the blame spasms.

    Only the Lakers, it seems, are incapable of walking away from one of the most inspirational playoff games in several seasons without somebody dissing somebody.

    And only on the Lakers, it seems, could a newly crowned MVP once again find himself smack in the middle of the smack.

    Playing through three hours worth of back pain that literally dropped him to his knees on a Sunday afternoon here, Kobe Bryant was splendidly, brilliantly tough in the Lakers' 123-115 overtime playoff loss to the Utah Jazz.

    But he was also, like, weird.

    Bryant valiantly carried the Lakers through regulation's final five minutes, using his head and his heart and the best Mother's Day passing that didn't involve a brunch plate.

    But once he pulled his team into the overtime, he seemingly abandoned them there. He insisted on shooting even as his wracked body was betraying those shots. He forgot about passing even though that is what the Lakers had done best.

    The Lakers survived regulation thanks to him, but lost in overtime seemingly because of him, and are now stuck in a frustrating two-games-apiece tie against a team that is fortunate to have lasted this long.

    And afterward, the confusion became even more confusing.

    Coach Phil Jackson blamed the overtime problems on Bryant's teammates for not working hard enough to get the ball.

    "I was angry at his teammates for dropping the ball in his lap," Jackson said. "I felt guys just bailed out on him."

    Later, Jackson said that "bailed out" was perhaps too strong of a phrase, but the message had been sent.

    And most of Bryant's teammates received it with wonder.

    They took exactly three of the team's 10 shots in overtime, and it was their fault?

    The team had zero assists in the overtime, after Bryant had six assists in the fourth quarter alone, and that was on them?

    "I wasn't hesitant," said Pau Gasol, who muscled back from his weak Game 3 to regain the paint. "I just tried to help out. The ball got stuck too much. We took too many jumpers."

    Lamar Odom, who also showed up strong, shook his head and smiled.

    "P.J. is the coach, he's watching from the sidelines, he sees things different than we do," he said. "And sometimes P.J. just says things to get us going."

    Sasha Vujacic, who played big minutes and made some big shots, shrugged.

    "I don't know what to say to that," he said. "I know sometimes Kobe just likes to take the game in his hands. It's normal."

    In response to Jackson's assertion, Bryant explained, "He wants them to come to me, but come to me later in the offense, not right away and just stand around. That's something we talked about."

    The only thing certain in the overtime, as Vujacic said, was Kobe Bryant being Kobe Bryant.

    The problem is, the back spasms had turned him into something less than Kobe Bryant.

    It was as if Bryant understood his limitations in the fourth quarter when the Lakers were still far behind. But once it appeared they could really win this game, he forgot about those limitations and tried to win it for them.

    In the end, it was the Lakers offense that needed ice bags.

    "In the fourth quarter, everything was smooth," said Odom. "But in overtime, we just didn't get the shots we wanted."

    Let's start with that fourth quarter.

    In the final five minutes of regulation, after icing on the bench and collapsing on the court, Bryant directed a 12-point comeback that will rank among his finest Laker moments.

    He could barely walk, but, man, could he see. He had five brilliant assists during that time, finding Derek Fisher for three consecutive three-pointers, discovering Gasol for a dunk, hitting Odom for a game-tying trey.

    "It was perfect out there," said Luke Walton.

    Then came the overtime, and Bryant did a perfect 360, and I'm not talking about a dunk.

    He stopped passing. He stopped looking. Even though his shot was obviously being altered by his soreness, he started shooting.

    He missed a jumper. His layup attempt was blocked by Andrei Kirilenko.

    After getting tangled up in a fight for a loose ball, he dropped to his knees in front of the Jazz bench; nobody pushed him, he just dropped in obvious pain.

    At the time, there was 2:53 left in the overtime and the Jazz still led by only two points.

    Bryant stood up and immediately began shooting again.

    Kirilenko blocked another Bryant shot. Then Bryant missed a three-point attempt.

    By then, the Jazz led by four points, and a Bryant layup pulled the Lakers back to within two.

    Yet after the Jazz extended that lead to five, Bryant missed yet another layup, the lead was extended to seven, and that was that.

    Fittingly, the last Lakers shot of the game was a Bryant airball.

    "In the fourth quarter, we did a good job of spacing and finding the right spots," said Fisher. "In the overtime, we didn't keep that focus."

    Afterward, all the focus was on the stat sheet, which showed Bryant making just one of seven shots in overtime, and only two of his final 13 shots overall.

    It might have been a different story with more involvement from his teammates, who combined to make 12 of 17 shots in the fourth quarter.

    Even during this spring of great teamwork, are the other Lakers still too deferential of Bryant during crunch time?

    Or is Bryant still too headstrong, a guy who believes he can carry the team even on a badly aching back?

    Whatever, Bryant was so sore late in the game, at one point it took two teammates to lift him off the floor.

    But in the end, as the Lakers crumbled around him, he stood alone.

    Maybe his teammates truly just weren't smart and strong enough to give him help.

    Or maybe he didn't let them.

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketbal ... ull.column
     
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    BaadMasterOffline
    Post subject: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for Lakers  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 12:46 AM PST
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    The best way to understand Kobe Bryant, as I see it, is to think of him like an alcoholic who is in Alcoholic Anonymous. A.A. claims you are always an alcoholic; you can fall off the wagon at any time. It is a one-day-at-a-time situation; it is a fight you wage every day of your life. Kobe went to S.A (Shootaholics Anonymous) this year and it was very successful. Successful as in MVP and elite team status. But, even during the regular season he did have relapses. You can see it in his eyes. He gets this glazed look and you know he will not pass if his life depended on it. Fortunately, those relapses were few and far between this year.

    It appears that certain situations trigger his “one-man-against-five” addiction and it takes over. I think being behind by a huge margin, overtime and even being injured triggers him to go back to his shootaholic ways. The parallel is so strong, that A.A. counsels you not to have even one drink; one drink can lead to a full-blown bout of alcoholism. Same with Kobe, He missed three shots, but the adrenaline rush and the lure of his addiction made it impossible for him to rationally stop this behavior. It was a full-blown shootaholic relapse. And everybody saw it. The Jazz did, his team mates did and I did!

    In reality, this relapse could be a blessing in disguise. Because he sees that the old way simply does not work. He cannot carry a team on his back, injured or otherwise, against a top flight playoff team. “81 mentality” works in the regular season against a lesser team like Toronto; it is an abject failure against the Utah’s of the world. Thus, he can reinforce in stark, slap-you-in-the-face terms, that the old way can not, will not and will never work in the post season. For whatever reason, he tried it. It was a total fiasco. It is time for him to go back to Shootaholics Anonymous again. For it is clear to us, and now even more clear to him, that S.A. brought him here.

    I predict an amazing game out of Kobe and the Lakers this Wednesday.

    (Disclaimer. I am not in A.A. but have many A.A. and G.A. friends. I might not be totally accurate as to the A.A. approach. So I apologize in advance to any A.A. members who see any errors in my analogies.)


    Last edited by BaadMaster on May 12, 2008 - 12:48 AM PST; edited 1 time in total
     
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    SPQROffline
    Post subject: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for Lakers  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 12:47 AM PST
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    Baadmaster,

    That was a very astute post.

    Kobe, for all his brilliance, has a massive ego. It's caused alot of problems on this team in the locker room over the years and almost destroyed its future. (See trading Drew for Garnett or Jermaine O'Neil just to he could get a quick post Shaq ring amoung many contretemps hes pulled). This is no news to any objective person who has followed his career on the Lakers.

    It is also this ego that helps make him so confident and dominating a physical and mental force. Not many people, or athletes are perfect. With King Kobes indefatigable will to win, his spectacular ability, clutch play, iron man body and limitless stamina, you also get the bad. Despite his defenders, and comments he makes to the contrary, Kobes ego forces him to always be the star, the greatest player on the court, the man who won every game. His history bears this out with absolute clarity in so many instances and circumstances. Anyone who does not beleive this just isn't watching.

    It's a flaw in the great mans personality. I have no doubt, that if we made the finals this year, and say Pau exploded for the first two games and dominated, Kobe would start to take over the rest of the games even if it hurt the team. It would kill him after the Shaq years to win another title and not garner the MVP. Make no mistake, he can't win a title this year or the next and be happy. He has to win the title and be the MVP of the series. It's just how he put together.

    That being said, is his absolute brilliance and game breaking abilities a good enough trade off for this flaw in his personality? I think so..by a far measure. I believe Michael Jordan had the exact same flaw in his personality and he did pretty good. Kobes ego will always rear its ugly head in certian circumstances, especially in pursuit of his elusive post Shaq title, but he will win so many more games than he will lose.

    The Kobe-Jordan flaw, for want of a better word, is not easy to take for teamates. Jordan had tons of troubles with his basket ball "family". If you don't believe it, just read the book, The Jordan Rules. Its why i said on another thread here, (Vlad still a Space Cadet) that the Laker player "family" is a myth. There are players on this team who don't like Kobe. There are players on this team who don't like other players besides Kobe. It's just human nature. It takes a special kind of teamate to play with Kobe, or MJ.

    There will always be tension in a Kobe or Jordan locker room. The thing that hides it is winning. When the winning stops, then the tensions and dissent begin to bubble up to the surface.

    Kobes well known remark, "I'm tired of playing in Shaqs shadow", pretty much said it all. Rings weren't enough for him. Contast that with Magic Johnson who could have been a 25 or more point a game scorer but who gladly sublimated so much of himself for Kareem and other Lakers so he could win titles. Winning was all that mattered to Magic, not credit. When you play with Kobe or MJ, you are the second string. Thats just how it is. I perfer the Magic Johnson-Chris Paul attitude of team success ..but MJ and Kobe have both shown that you can succeed the other way as well. It's a different way to do it, just alot harder and more frustating for teamates.

    This issue does bring up something I have reflected about a bit this year which i will share to all of you. As i watched Drews game expand by leaps and bounds this year, including leading the league in field goal percentage, I could not help but see the day, in the near future, when passing the ball into Drew is more effective than letting Kobe be the first scoring option. I can't help but wonder, when the day comes that Phil and the organizatioin decide that Drew is the best and most effective player and offensive option on the floor, coupled with Drew getting recoginition from the fans and press as the best player on the team, how will King Kobe once again deal with "playing in someones shadow."? Just a little side line issue that will be interesting to observe as this plays out over the next few years.

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    Last edited by SPQR on May 12, 2008 - 10:42 AM PST; edited 4 times in total
     
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    Post subject: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for Lakers  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 02:05 AM PST
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    well to be honest, the guys who brought up the ball tended to give it to kobe at the beginning of the 24. why couldn't they work the other side?

    i'm not trying to defend kobe, i'm actually pretty pissed at the way he selfishly played the OT. but i really want our guys to not be afraid to NOT pass to him. i've liked how derek's been able to do that, but even he gave the ball up to kobe. i was getting steadily frustrated at every pass to kobe. i didn't care if he'd whine about not getting the ball; i wanted us to win and we had the pieces to do it with fisher, odom, gasol and sasha all playing pretty well.

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    Post subject: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for Lakers  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 02:16 AM PST
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    Lamar was Clutch, m not worry at all, UTAH is a different team on the road
     
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    Post subject: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for Lakers  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 02:19 AM PST
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    LakersFranchise wrote:
    Lamar was Clutch, m not worry at all, UTAH is a different team on the road


    yeah but i really didn't want this series to drag on to a game 7, because i didn't want any injuries to occur or fatigue to kick in. too bad though, kobe's back is tweaked and we're looking pretty tired out there. not to mention kobe's testing his teammates' patience by hogging the ball in crucial moments, even with his back spasms kicking him in the butt.

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    Post subject: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for Lakers  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 02:20 AM PST
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    The whole one vs five thing in the overtime was really hard for me to watch. It seemed like Fisher and Odom were hot but Kobe needed to jack up outside shots for some reason that he hadnt been making since playing in Utah. If Kobe was firing on all cylinders then so be it but he wasnt.
     
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    Post subject: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for Lakers  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 02:36 AM PST
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    ericbdepraved wrote:
    The whole one vs five thing in the overtime was really hard for me to watch. It seemed like Fisher and Odom were hot but Kobe needed to jack up outside shots for some reason that he hadnt been making since playing in Utah. If Kobe was firing on all cylinders then so be it but he wasnt.


    It was hard for me to watch also. It seemed like it got back to the point that he shot the ball every time he touched it. I'm sure there all going to watch the tap and Kobe will realize what he did and we end this in 6
     
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    BaadMasterOffline
    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for La  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 02:50 AM PST
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    Here is a question I ponder. The floor is yours.

    Knowing Kobe was injured, why didnt PJax order a three at the end of regulation. That way, you either win (40% chance, or better with DFish taking the shot) or you lose. But you don't make Kobe play another five minute period. Plus, the odds of winning aren't any better in O/T as they know the arena, have the refs on their side (as we do at home, I am not complaining) and momentum goes back and forth. They were due for a run, Kobe's one-on-five episode notwithstanding.

    Even announcers agree. You play for a win on the road, a tie at home. DFish hits a three, or misses, all this would never have happened.

    In the end, I put this on PJax for what I call an idiotic way to end the fourth quarter.
     
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    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for La  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 10:10 AM PST
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    Yeah, I would have to agree with Baadmaster. Fish and Sasha were hot throughout the game, once Kobe got the ball on the inside the D collapsed to him, either Fish or Sasha must have been open.
     
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    SPQROffline
    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for La  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 10:47 AM PST
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    The Denver series was not a true indicator of what the Lakers are or their power. The Nuggets were a seriously disfunctional team. Since the day Drew went down, our ability to play stellar defense was lost. It's not going to come back this year.

    We will have to try win this thing with passing, offense and the matchup problems and brilliance of Kobe Bryant.

    It's not often that team with our defensive liabilities wins the title. This will be a very tough go for us. Every series from this time forth is going to be a dogfight.

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    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for La  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 01:09 PM PST
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    Even though the lakers didnt get the calls they should have got they have no one else to blamme except themselves.I saw a series of missed free throws i think 14 for 25 that wont get it done.Last but not least Kobe did kill us in the overtime but thats when his teammates should have stepped up like they did in the fourth quarter.From watching these two road games we can see that Fisher is the key because Farmar isnt playing with any confidence he's not bringing the intensity and the energy.It's true he cant guard Deron since he is much bigger but Farmar should not allow Deron to guard him he is too quick and too good of a shooter to be playing the way he has been playing.
     
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    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for La  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 01:14 PM PST
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    ok...just to clear things up, kobe did a 180 NOT a 360...if he had done a 360 he would have ended up where we started...
     
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    kk
    Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot fo  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 01:26 PM PST
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    clouducla wrote:
    ok...just to clear things up, kobe did a 180 NOT a 360...if he had done a 360 he would have ended up where we started...



    You're right about him doing a 180 but a 360 can be done without him being in the same place where he started
     
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    clouduclaOffline
    Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot fo  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 01:31 PM PST
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    kk wrote:
    clouducla wrote:
    ok...just to clear things up, kobe did a 180 NOT a 360...if he had done a 360 he would have ended up where we started...



    You're right about him doing a 180 but a 360 can be done without him being in the same place where he started



    how can you do a 360 and not end up in the same direction?
     
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    kk
    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spo  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 01:42 PM PST
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    Thats not what you said you said he would have ended up where he started which would mean spot or area which is different from direction
     
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    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot for La  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 01:45 PM PST
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    I think there is a lot of blame to go around for that loss yesterday.

    I do feel that the Lakers deferred to Kobe too much and just sat and waited for the Magic to happen. Kobe has the mentality of always attacking and there is no way that Kobe is going to admit that he can't get it done and swing the ball back for someone else to do it. Kobe's greatest strength can also be a bad weakness also.

    I really felt that the Lakers should have hit the post more and make Okur and Boozer defend which is not their strength. Lamar and Gasol should have had the ball a lot more in overtime along with Fish who was hot. I'm really dissappointed in the whole Laker squad, not just Kobe, Phil or who ever else people are trying to point out. The whole team absolutely blew it, they blew the game badly, a game which was theirs to win.


    SPQR - In my opinion I think you've over analyzed Kobe talking about his ego and all that. You went into a lot of depth with the comparisons to MJ's own large ego. Do you know Kobe on a personal level? I'm assuming you must for you to say that this man would actually take over games that another player was shining in just so he can get the credit. I think you just did a pretty slam-bang job of making Kobe seem like a Sh***y teammate who can't let his teammates share in the limelight.

    Clouducla - Right on the money with the 180, I've noticed a lot of people like to say 360 as far as becoming the opposite.

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    Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 01:54 PM PST
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    kk wrote:
    Thats not what you said you said he would have ended up where he started which would mean spot or area which is different from direction


    lol, you are right, i misspoke...ill try to be more exact next time...and seeing as how we are going to be so nitpicky; your conclusion does not follow from my statement. "ended up where he* started" could mean a myriad of different things (if taken out of context as you seem to have). it could mean same time, same locations on the court, same state of mind, same whatever. My statement was a relational statement, and a vague one at that. If you take this relational statement out of context you can interpret in anyway you see fit. However, if taken in to context, kobe drastically changing his game from team player to solo act, then you will see that what i meant by "ended up where he started" would be referring to his game and not a location or anything else.
     
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    Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bryant's overtime performance a sore spot fo  PostPosted: May 12, 2008 - 01:59 PM PST
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    gemfow wrote:
    I think there is a lot of blame to go around for that loss yesterday.

    I do feel that the Lakers deferred to Kobe too much and just sat and waited for the Magic to happen. Kobe has the mentality of always attacking and there is no way that Kobe is going to admit that he can't get it done and swing the ball back for someone else to do it. Kobe's greatest strength can also be a bad weakness also.

    I really felt that the Lakers should have hit the post more and make Okur and Boozer defend which is not their strength. Lamar and Gasol should have had the ball a lot more in overtime along with Fish who was hot. I'm really dissappointed in the whole Laker squad, not just Kobe, Phil or who ever else people are trying to point out. The whole team absolutely blew it, they blew the game badly, a game which was theirs to win.


    SPQR - In my opinion I think you've over analyzed Kobe talking about his ego and all that. You went into a lot of depth with the comparisons to MJ's own large ego. Do you know Kobe on a personal level? I'm assuming you must for you to say that this man would actually take over games that another player was shining in just so he can get the credit. I think you just did a pretty slam-bang job of making Kobe seem like a Sh***y teammate who can't let his teammates share in the limelight.

    Clouducla - Right on the money with the 180, I've noticed a lot of people like to say 360 as far as becoming the opposite.



    ya bro...tons of people do it...i dont get it...i guess this misinterpretation has become a saying rather than a factual statement...thats the only reason why people keep confusing 360 and 180...i guess...maybe they are talking in metaphor...i dont kno...
     
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